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Jon Nolan
tinnitus
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 1066
Location: New Hampshire
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 Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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There's a blog by larry here: "It Helps to Get Paid."
I guess I didn't realized how strongly I felt about the whole willy-nilly downloading thing until some dude named "Gorilla" chimed in. Attitudes like his make me wish that it were somehow possible, in another universe, for all musicians to gang together, and make NO music for like six months. Allow no streaming or anything. No rights to any catalog for six months. No new TV or movie soundtracks, no live bands in clubs, no performances in coffeehouses, or college frat house basements, or union buildings, no new singles for radio, no karaoke machines, no rock band video games, no new gaming music period. no more. Just shut it all down.
granted, not only is this not possible, it's not exactly a "mature" response to the trend. It does make me pissed off in a take-my-ball-and-go-home kind of way, though.
tomorrow i'll feel better. ha. anyhoo....
Jon
EDIT: ok, this thought is lame. but i will leave it up. no one should "take their ball and go home." just a grumpy reaction.
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Last edited by Jon Nolan on Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Snarl 12/8
moves faders with mind
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 2708
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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I posted a comment, but it's probably just gonna make you madder.
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Carl Keil |
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Jon Nolan
tinnitus
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 1066
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| Snarl 12/8 wrote: | | I posted a comment, but it's probably just gonna make you madder. |
yeah, i think your take on this is eff'd. so no copyrights for words eh? no more poets or authors i guess. it's true, they've been sticking it to my wallet for years! screw that jazz! that's a *great* idea carl. good on ya man. 
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Snarl 12/8
moves faders with mind
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 2708
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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I was just wondering. Do you think Aimee Mann gets a nickel every time someone watches that Portlandia clip that Larry linked to? We should watch it a million times and make her rich.
There's got to be a system besides "copyright" that can allow "artists" to make a living. Is there really a hot market for illegal poetry downloads? Novels even?
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TapeOpLarry
TapeOp Admin
Joined: 01 May 2003
Posts: 1492
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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C'mon Carl, you know Aimee Mann got paid to perform words other people wrote. She probably gets residuals every time this is aired on cable/TV. Point is, she got paid.
http://futureofmusic.org/article/fact-sheet/public-performance-right-sound-recordings
The Performance Royalties Act has been kicking around Congress for too long...
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dwlb
zen recordist
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6608
Location: criticizing globally, offending locally
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| Snarl 12/8 wrote: | | There's got to be a system besides "copyright" that can allow "artists" to make a living. |
Tell me why. Please. I'm serious. This comes up all the time around here and I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument against copyright.
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"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." – Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/ |
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chris harris
speech impediment
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 4121
Location: Norman, OK
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mjsemtex
studio intern
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 29
Location: nyc metro landfill.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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i've had 'arguments' similar to the subject of the original blog post... and it does continue to absolutely disgust me that half of the people blindly downloading this stuff have no idea who it actually comes from. or, if they do, they don't care that these people actually deserve money for their work.
i do whatever i can to support the artists i love. i continue to buy actual 'releases', the physical kind in packaging that's actually still printed on real printing presses and not some 'on demand' digital crap that is generated when i order it.
lately, i've noticed a lot of labels who still sell vinyl allowing you to download or including a cd copy of the tracks. i kind of like this idea... i like this idea because there's a lot of stuff that i have on vinyl and then i'll go out and buy the cd as well.
i'm also far too particular about details to even think i'd be ultimately satisfied with the quality of a download... digital files created by who? tags all messed up, tracklistings all messed up, quality all over the place, ripped from what originally? it pays absolutely no respect whatsoever to the original art. no thank you.
there are so many people out there who are satisfied with sub-standard garbage... not just in music. pick a topic and float into any internet 'forum' and you'll find it... and they'll defend their choices til the death (usually with completely flawed reasoning and questionable morals).
on a positive note, some of the 'new' distribution models that this 'modern age' have introduced now allow me to buy directly from some artists. i like that. because it also sometimes gives me the opportunity to thank them... and sometimes, if you're nice, get a few free things thrown in the package... sometimes they are even printed things... printed things made on real printing presses with real paper and real ink designed by an artist. |
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plurgid
gettin' sounds
Joined: 24 Mar 2010
Posts: 129
Location: Huntsville, AL
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| dwlb wrote: | | Snarl 12/8 wrote: | | There's got to be a system besides "copyright" that can allow "artists" to make a living. |
Tell me why. Please. I'm serious. This comes up all the time around here and I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument against copyright. |
they can't sing 'happy birthday' at TGIFridays (or any other restaurant)
here's another one
you can't use a sample or clip from 'steamboat willie' without getting your ass sued into oblivion by Disney ... 83 years after it's creation
or really
as a means of getting artists paid for their work, it's really not working that well anymore
oh man ... you could go on and on. There's a list like this a thousand miles long.
Artists gots ta gets paid, or the scene dies.
There's no denying that, but copyright as a means for making that happen becomes more and more ludicrous by the day.
Like it or not, Joe average considers music as an organic component of culture, not as a product. We're really all hardwired to see it that way ... if you don't believe me ... how many threads do we have on this board about people working for free ... or being asked to work for free.
For millions of years before the relatively recent invention of recording, music WAS in fact just a part of the culture. Another means of communication. Before the internet, you could sell recordings because the recording medium had to be physical. Now it is not ... and the general public is back to classifying music as just another form of speech. As evidence, I offer facebook. How many youtube videos of songs are posted every day? Damn, I probably post 3 every day, just myself. Because I wanted to say something to my friends, and the song was a good way of saying it.
So ... yeah. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. No amount of legal firepower will change that, ever. No amount of bitching and moaning or pleading with your fans can change it either.
So we really do need a better system to keep artists paid than copyright.
Wish I knew what it was ... |
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dwlb
zen recordist
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6608
Location: criticizing globally, offending locally
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| plurgid wrote: | | dwlb wrote: | | Snarl 12/8 wrote: | | There's got to be a system besides "copyright" that can allow "artists" to make a living. |
Tell me why. Please. I'm serious. This comes up all the time around here and I have yet to see anyone make a compelling argument against copyright. |
they can't sing 'happy birthday' at TGIFridays (or any other restaurant)
here's another one
you can't use a sample or clip from 'steamboat willie' without getting your ass sued into oblivion by Disney ... 83 years after it's creation
or really
as a means of getting artists paid for their work, it's really not working that well anymore
oh man ... you could go on and on. There's a list like this a thousand miles long.
Artists gots ta gets paid, or the scene dies.
There's no denying that, but copyright as a means for making that happen becomes more and more ludicrous by the day.
Like it or not, Joe average considers music as an organic component of culture, not as a product. We're really all hardwired to see it that way ... if you don't believe me ... how many threads do we have on this board about people working for free ... or being asked to work for free.
For millions of years before the relatively recent invention of recording, music WAS in fact just a part of the culture. Another means of communication. Before the internet, you could sell recordings because the recording medium had to be physical. Now it is not ... and the general public is back to classifying music as just another form of speech. As evidence, I offer facebook. How many youtube videos of songs are posted every day? Damn, I probably post 3 every day, just myself. Because I wanted to say something to my friends, and the song was a good way of saying it.
So ... yeah. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. No amount of legal firepower will change that, ever. No amount of bitching and moaning or pleading with your fans can change it either.
So we really do need a better system to keep artists paid than copyright.
Wish I knew what it was ... |
You're not actually saying anything there. Of course people consider music as "just a part of the culture." It's a circular argument, because that's exactly the mindset that required us to come up with the concept of copyright in the first place. "That's just the way it is" is not exactly the rational defense of anti-copyright sentiment I was asking for.
Please be more specific. If your list is a thousand miles long, I hope it includes something more solid.
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"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."
"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." – Brian Eno
All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/ |
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sears
steve albini likes it
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 335
Location: ec md
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| dwlb wrote: | | plurgid wrote: | | For millions of years before the relatively recent invention of recording, music WAS in fact just a part of the culture. Another means of communication. Before the internet, you could sell recordings because the recording medium had to be physical. Now it is not ... and the general public is back to classifying music as just another form of speech. |
You're not actually saying anything there. |
Actually, he is. What he's saying is that recordings themselves were a consumer fad. Records are now art for collectors, patrons and the rich. They're not something everyone HAS TO HAVE anymore.
For whatever reason demand for recordings of music has gone down. Nothing's going to bring it back. |
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Jon Nolan
tinnitus
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 1066
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| sears wrote: |
For whatever reason demand for recordings of music has gone down. Nothing's going to bring it back. |
wrong. demand for recordings is still high. people just don't want to pay for it. and no, nothing is gonna bring it back.
it's funny though. seriously. i could give a shit if a fan of mine burns a bunch of copies and tries to turn others on to my music. something feels different about it when people argue for "it's mine anyway."
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terryb
takin' a dinner break
Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 197
Location: portland
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| It's funny that the only stuff you can illegally download is major label and really popular indie music. Obviously, to get to the point where people can steal your music online, you have to had built a massive nationwide fan base. I do realize there are a few exceptions to this, but just my own observation. |
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chris harris
speech impediment
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 4121
Location: Norman, OK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| terryb wrote: | | It's funny that the only stuff you can illegally download is major label and really popular indie music. Obviously, to get to the point where people can steal your music online, you have to had built a massive nationwide fan base. I do realize there are a few exceptions to this, but just my own observation. |
This isn't really accurate. When we released our most recent 7", we sent out some mp3s for blogs to post and literally the next day, the songs were available via several file sharing websites and services. And, our music is not exactly in high demand. It's obvious that there are some people out there working to make sure that ANY music they can get their hands on is available via file sharing.
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chris harris
speech impediment
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 4121
Location: Norman, OK
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| Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: Response to one of Larry's Bogs / I got kinda PO'd! |
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| sears wrote: | | Actually, he is. What he's saying is that recordings themselves were a consumer fad. Records are now art for collectors, patrons and the rich. They're not something everyone HAS TO HAVE anymore. |
Wow. I have to give you credit for coming up with an argument that I hadn't actually heard yet. But, it's still nonsense. Especially this part:
| sears wrote: | | For whatever reason demand for recordings of music has gone down. Nothing's going to bring it back. |
Completely false. Demand for recordings of music has gone through the roof! Demand is such that people will engage in behavior that they know to be illegal, just to obtain as much of it as they can.
People steal music because they can do it easily and the likelihood of being caught is very slim. PERIOD. There's really nothing more to the argument. Anyone who even attempts to make it about more than that, is just trying to justify something that they know in their heart is wrong. In the early days of these types of discussions, the ONLY valid argument that was ever floated out there and actually accepted as valid, was the argument that the labels didn't make downloads available, so someone else did. It's funny (sad?) how far down the quality of arguments has sunk since legal downloads are easily and readily available and insanely inexpensive. You can get several albums of free, legal downloads for what one might spend at the bar every weekend. But, since they still CAN get them (illegally) for free, they still DO get them for free. This says more about human nature than the music business in 2011.
And, there is a solution. It's a solution that is working for independent labels all over the world. If you don't think in terms of selling millions of units, and instead focus on developing a relationship with your customers, you can build the kind of trust that makes people want to support what you're doing.
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