Tape Machine punching in and out

Matt C. · Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 10:32 am Post subject: Tape Machine punching in and out

I know this issue has been covered before, but none of the posts i found really satisfied my curiosity about this:

I'm a bit confused about people's usual working methods for successfully punching in and out while tracking to tape. specifically i'm wondering about the seemingly inevitable crossfades/dropouts that occur when punching in new material over existing material already on the track (trying to punch in and out when there is not a natural pause in what is being played).

my experience (and common sense based on the physical gap between the erase head and the record head) tell me that this can't be avoided. but something in the back of my mind says there must be either a special trick to get around it, or maybe fancier tape machines are designed to make it a non-issue.

am I missing something here, or are these dropouts just something that analog engineers are stuck with?

Gregg Juke

Stuck with it to an extent, but the rules were always-- "Look for an appropriate spot with the right 'in' and 'out' point in the phrase," and "always punch in and out on a downbeat." If your punch-ins are on songs with drums, and you punch on a downbeat, at least it will be covered by a bass drum or snare hit.

In practical application, this is not always possible, of course.

GJ

Gregg Juke

Oh, another rule (I learned the hard way from punch-engineering for friends)-- Always make sure you have the correct track (the one you really want to punch on) armed; none of the others!!!! Oy...

GJ

chris harris

That tiny crossfade (and it is tiny) should actually help to disguise your punch in. Without it, you'd inevitably have pops when you punch in/out. That's why a lot of DAWs will auto-crossfade punches. The trick is choosing your spots strategically and getting good at hitting those spots.
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Matt C.

yeah the crossfade isn't really a problem as much as the empty punch out gap is.

permanent hearing damage

the dropout shouldn't be that brutal. definitely follow the downbeats and be sure to lead that punch a tiny bit - depending on how far your erase head is from your record head.

if the dropout is that rough, your machine may need servicing. i remember trying to punch on an ms16 once that had bad relays and that was an awful mess.

telepathy

if you can't punch on a sixteenth note up to about 130 or 140 bpm you don't deserve to call yourself an engineer.

(as long as the machine can handle it, of course!)
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telepathy

another big piece of the puzzle is planning ahead & covering your tracks.

for example, the singer wants to do all the verses in the song, then go back & cut the big loud choruses, so as not to blow their voice out before all the verses are done. so you cut the verses, and you punch out on the downbeat of the chorus. when you go back to record the choruses, you punch in on the downbeat of the measure *before* the chorus, so you don't get that weird change in the air of the track right at the moment the singer starts singing in the chorus. similarly, at the end of the chorus, you punch out at the same time you punched in for the next verse on the previous pass. dig?

it's easier than it sounds. standardization of punch points throughout the song is key.
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Matt C.

I haven't had a problem punching in vocals. the issue is with continuous sounds - like a big distorted guitar playing all fast Ramones style or something. maybe i'm crazy but it seems like having a (roughly) 70ms dropout on a track like that is going to be obvious, no matter how perfectly it lines up with the downbeat.

I have also been worried about the tape machine itself, since I have an MS16 and i've heard about the relays going bad. but it seems like the problem comes down to the gap between the heads.

Gregg Juke

Maybe you're a little too close to it? Maybe it's not obvious at all?
Hard to say without hearing exactly what you are...

GJ

permanent hearing damage

have you had the machine checked out by a tech recently? if not, i would do my best to find one. what you are describing sounds like the relays to me.

when my ms16 was in regular use, i punched distorted guitars in and out all the time without issue. admittedly, it has been close to 4 years since i used it, but i made a lot of records on that machine and i definitely did not have audible drop outs unless i really fucked up a punch

**drumsound**

70ms, really? That sounds like something is not right. I'm spoiled, I've had machines the punch really quickly.
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Matt C.

hmmmm.....70ms was just my estimate based on the distance between the erase and record head (seems like when you punch out, there's about an inch of tape that's been erased already but isn't going to make it to the record head before your'e punched out)

i'll do some tests later today and post a clip if it's anything interesting.

Matt C.

update - ran a test punching in and out on the MS16 just now, using steady test tones for maximum clarity. I was pretty much right on the money about the 70ms gap when punching out. the punch in is fine, there's a bit of a surge in volume because of the crossfade but that seems normal. here is a clip:

http://soundcloud.com/matt-castore/tape-machine-punch-in-test

does this seem indicative of bad relays?

**drumsound**

Is that recorded while you were doing the punching, or when you were playing it back? On my 3M it would sound like a punch out was blown due to switching from record to sync, but on playback there would be no gap.
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