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in2thegapagain85
ass engineer
Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 44
Location: Reno NV
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 Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:12 pm Post subject: 8 Chennels of drums |
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Going to be recording some drums, and I only have 8 channels available. I have an idea of the approach I'm planning on taking, but thought I would ask how you all would go about it.
Drummer plays a 4 piece kit (kick, snare, rack and floor) with hats, a crash and a ride. 60's ludwig and supraphonic snare. The music is rock/alternative with some shoegazy elements. Sort of along the lines of Silversun Pickups, Thrice, Dredg etc.
my thoughts:
Snare - 57
Kick - D112
Toms - CAD179
OH - Fathead Lundahls
FOK - Mojave MA-200
Room Mic - AT4047
Not really looking for mic suggestions as my options are limited, but rather if there is anything particular that the channels should be dedicated to. I like to get a majority of the sound from my overheads, the close mics are there to fill in. I figure the MA-200 will sort of bring everything together, and then I'll find a good spot in the room for the AT4047 for some ambience. |
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rustonc123
audio school
Joined: 03 May 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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| sure you probably already know this one, but try putting another kick drum in front of the drummers kick drum. mirror image style. front head of drummers against open face kick. loosen beater side so it's floppy but still vibrates, of spare kick and place ribbon or whatever semi lo end mic u prefer. i did this with the fathead and loved the out come. great lo end from the kick and gives everything else an interesting room sound. |
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Gregg Juke
resurrected
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 2317
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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Yeah, it sounds like a good plan, but depending on your room, "FOK" can be the same/pretty much the same as "room."
You say 8 channels, but twice you mention 7 elements ("4-pieces," or did you mean 5? _Two_ rack toms? And you will have a set of mikes for stereo close-miking the toms, as well as OH's?)...
Anyway, if you are going to forego anything in the "standard" drum close-miking set-up, it is probably very wise of you to drop the HH mike. There will be plenty everywhere else.
GJ |
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Gregg Juke
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Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 2317
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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PS-- The "kick-drum tunnel"/extension mentioned above _is_ an excellent approach, if you're looking for that type of sound.
GJ |
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Snarl 12/8
moves faders with mind
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 2735
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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I know you said no mic suggestions, but how about a switcheroo? You might try the D112 on floor tom (or snare, or somewhere) and one of your LDC's on kick. To me the kick tone is crucial and getting it right will make the mix so much easier and better and I just never got what I wanted from a D112 after a decade of trying. I use an e602 now and I love it, but my cheap-ass LDC's come way closer to that sound than the D112 ever did. Just a thought.
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in2thegapagain85
ass engineer
Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 44
Location: Reno NV
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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| Gregg Juke wrote: | Yeah, it sounds like a good plan, but depending on your room, "FOK" can be the same/pretty much the same as "room."
You say 8 channels, but twice you mention 7 elements ("4-pieces," or did you mean 5? _Two_ rack toms? And you will have a set of mikes for stereo close-miking the toms, as well as OH's?)...
Anyway, if you are going to forego anything in the "standard" drum close-miking set-up, it is probably very wise of you to drop the HH mike. There will be plenty everywhere else.
GJ |
Sorry for the confusion, there will be 8 mics, his kit has 4 pieces (drums) and a couple cymbals:
Kick
Snare
Rack tom
Floor tom
Overhead x 2
FOK
Room |
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in2thegapagain85
ass engineer
Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 44
Location: Reno NV
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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| Snarl 12/8 wrote: | | I know you said no mic suggestions, but how about a switcheroo? You might try the D112 on floor tom (or snare, or somewhere) and one of your LDC's on kick. To me the kick tone is crucial and getting it right will make the mix so much easier and better and I just never got what I wanted from a D112 after a decade of trying. I use an e602 now and I love it, but my cheap-ass LDC's come way closer to that sound than the D112 ever did. Just a thought. |
The main reason I said no mic suggestions is I'm limited to what I have access to, but switching things around is always possible. As you know, a lot of it is preference as well. I'm mainly was curious where everyone would apply the mics. I do have another AT4047, so I might use that or alone or in combination with the D112. We did some pre pro recordings with the D112 and it actually sounded really nice with his kit and playing. This will be completely decided but how things are sounding when we get tracking of course. |
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The Scum
dead but not forgotten
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 2009
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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A pair of 4047's?
Drop the FOK, and go for a stereo pair of room mics.
I find stereo ambience significantly more useful than mono.
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drumsound
TOMB Moderator
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 5802
Location: Bloomington IL
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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| The Scum wrote: | A pair of 4047's?
Drop the FOK, and go for a stereo pair of room mics.
I find stereo ambience significantly more useful than mono. |
Me too. I actually prefer a mono OH and stereo room to mono room stereo OH.
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Tony
Oxide Lounge Recording
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in2thegapagain85
ass engineer
Joined: 29 Nov 2010
Posts: 44
Location: Reno NV
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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| The Scum wrote: | A pair of 4047's?
Drop the FOK, and go for a stereo pair of room mics.
I find stereo ambience significantly more useful than mono. |
Yeah stereo room was my other thought to try as well. I've heard that the MA-200 is a great FOK and a friend offered to let me borrow one so I wanted to give it a shot. If I didn't have that I was gonna go with the 4047s for the room. The Fatheads give a pretty meaty overall drum sound as is, so I'm not sure how much the FOK would add, just wanted to try it with the mojave. |
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Gregg Juke
resurrected
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 2317
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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>>>>Me too. I actually prefer a mono OH and stereo room to mono room stereo OH.<<<<
Interesting, Tony. I'm sold on mono room now, after years of insisting on stereo!
GJ |
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A.David.MacKinnon
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Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 2431
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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| drumsound wrote: | | The Scum wrote: | A pair of 4047's?
Drop the FOK, and go for a stereo pair of room mics.
I find stereo ambience significantly more useful than mono. |
Me too. I actually prefer a mono OH and stereo room to mono room stereo OH. |
+1 on both of those comments. I'll take a mono overhead and a stereo room any day.
Mixing other people's tracks I find problems with the overheads more than half the time. Sometimes I think people place them by sight, not by sound. As a result you often end up with stereo overheads with phase issues, lob-sided imaging of the kit, tons of ride but not enough hats or crash, etc, etc, etc. If you don't have the experience and/or time to experiment, placing one OH is much easier than placing two.
If the room isn't great you might want to make those room mics an XY pair in front of the kit. Chest hight, 5 -6' back can be a good start.
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| fossiltooth wrote: | | The few people who are able to create genuinely new sounds are often insane-psycho-geniuses and the mentally retarded. |
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drumsound
TOMB Moderator
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 5802
Location: Bloomington IL
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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| Gregg Juke wrote: | >>>>Me too. I actually prefer a mono OH and stereo room to mono room stereo OH.<<<<
Interesting, Tony. I'm sold on mono room now, after years of insisting on stereo!
GJ |
I find stereo room actually makes the listener feels the space a whole hell of a lot more, even when they are mixed lower. Our minds (and ears) are built to determine spacial relationships, and I feel stereo rooms more "comforting" and "believable" in a way.
| A.David.MacKinnon wrote: | | drumsound wrote: | | The Scum wrote: | A pair of 4047's?
Drop the FOK, and go for a stereo pair of room mics.
I find stereo ambience significantly more useful than mono. |
Me too. I actually prefer a mono OH and stereo room to mono room stereo OH. |
+1 on both of those comments. I'll take a mono overhead and a stereo room any day.
Mixing other people's tracks I find problems with the overheads more than half the time. Sometimes I think people place them by sight, not by sound. As a result you often end up with stereo overheads with phase issues, lob-sided imaging of the kit, tons of ride but not enough hats or crash, etc, etc, etc. If you don't have the experience and/or time to experiment, placing one OH is much easier than placing two.
If the room isn't great you might want to make those room mics an XY pair in front of the kit. Chest hight, 5 -6' back can be a good start. |
Or think of a line going through the shell of the BD and the head of the SD to get them centered in the stereo image. 
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Oxide Lounge Recording
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GooberNumber9
tinnitus
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 1031
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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My stereo overheads were always questionable at best until I started doing the recorderman thing. It works great for limited mics/tracks.
I'm going to throw out another mic switcheroo idea:
Take the FOK mic and put it on the snare, and take the 57 off the snare and make it a second kick mic. Point the D112 through the hole in the kick at the beater, and just put the 57 somewhere pointed at the resonator head where it sounds good. Try to line up the capsules a bit and then mix them together for one kick track that has the lows and highs from the D112 and also the mids from the 57. You can EQ the kick mostly with just the level faders on the two tracks.
That has helped me feel better about not having an RE20 around for kick in the past. And I really like a lot of detail on the snare so I like putting an LDC on it, if I can physically squeeze it in next to the hi hat stand.
OR, use the Mojave and the AT4047 as overheads sorta Glynn Johns style, and then use the Lundahls as stereo room mics. |
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vvv
on a wing and a prayer
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 5701
Location: Chi
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: 8 Chennels of drums |
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You don't say a lot about the room but in my shitty low-ceilinged basement space we have recently been getting OK results by forgoing trad OH's and using two FOK mic's as A.David says (or as spaced pair). We use AT40447's for that, and love 'em, (having gone thru Studio Projects C5's, etc.)
The following is beyond the OP's request, so ignore if indicated:
FWIW, we love the E602 on the kick - so much that I haven't even tried anything else since we got it (including RE320, SM7b, MD421n and MD421 II, tube LDC, etc.)
We like to close mic the floor tom with a E503 (same as 603; one day I wanna try the CAD M149), and I like a ribbon about 20' out for room mic (usually with the back facing an open door.)
We change out the snare mic about every session, liking a Beta 58 and cheap AKG D's the most, lately.
(Results and variations can be heard at the "TFP" link below.)
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