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clean_and_humble
gettin' sounds
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 126
Location: Brooklyn NY
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 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: Tape sync to Pro Tools Similatious recording |
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Hi
I have a friend who asked me to help him with a recording project where he wants to record him playing a hi hat and a cymbal. He wants to record this on 4 of my tape sources while simultaneously recording into pro tools. We did a test record and realized that the Sony two track 1/4" reel to reel I have was out of sync with the Pro Tools recording that was happening at the same time. I thought it was latency so I tool low latency off and enabled the new delay compensation but it did not really help. Is there some trick to having everything sync? The actual recording he wants to do 4 tape decks all having separate tracks in pro tools that are the direct out of the decks and one straight to pro tools track and all perfectly in sync. Is this even possible?
The decks being used will be ?
TASCAM 202 MK2 cassette deck
TASCAM 464 Porta Studio
SONY TC 1/4" two track reel to reel
FOSTEX Model 80 8 track reel to reel (only using one stereo track)
I also have a 1/2" TEAC 80-8 but he does not want to use that
Any thoughts?
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Nick Sevilla
cryogenically thawing
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 3657
Location: Los Angeles California USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Tape sync to Pro Tools Similatious recording |
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If you mean recording the tape sources AND protools at the same time, as separate recording devices, then you do need to synch the tape machine and Protools. This would be recording say your 4 channels onto tape, plus additional channels in protools.
Unfortunately, unless you have PT HD with a sync box, their brand, OR their Complete Production toolkit and a sync device, it is going to be nearly impossible for you to do this properly.
Now if you guys are only trying to get the tape sound and then edit that in pro tools, then yes you can do it. You simply plug in the direct outputs of each tape machine in turn, and record the signal coming off the tape machine as he records into each one. This would be only recording the sounds going to the tape machine, at the same time both tape and protools see the same signal through the tape machine electronics.
To keep things synched, you can play back the audio from the pro tools machine only, and not from the tape machine, essentially using the tape machines as effects for altering the sound of whatever he is going to record.
Cheers
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clean_and_humble
gettin' sounds
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 126
Location: Brooklyn NY
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Tape sync to Pro Tools Similatious recording |
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Well I have Pro Tools 9 HD with the Digi003 system and tool kit.
They made all versions of Pro Tools HD with the upgrade to 9 and now 10. What do I have to do to sync? Is there something I have to buy to sync the decks to Pro Tools?
My friend wants to record to all for decks at once and to Pro Tools
I think he might be ok with dumping to pro tools and lining up but I am not sure.
Ideally I think he would like to hit his cymbal and have all four decks record that sound and at the same time have the output of those four decks going to 4 tracks of pro tools and have a fifth track that is just direct to pro tools and have all that line up.
Ambitious I know
but is it possible ?
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Nick Sevilla
cryogenically thawing
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 3657
Location: Los Angeles California USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Tape sync to Pro Tools Similatious recording |
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| clean_and_humble wrote: | Well I have Pro Tools 9 HD with the Digi003 system and tool kit.
They made all versions of Pro Tools HD with the upgrade to 9 and now 10. What do I have to do to sync? Is there something I have to buy to sync the decks to Pro Tools?
My friend wants to record to all for decks at once and to Pro Tools
I think he might be ok with dumping to pro tools and lining up but I am not sure.
Ideally I think he would like to hit his cymbal and have all four decks record that sound and at the same time have the output of those four decks going to 4 tracks of pro tools and have a fifth track that is just direct to pro tools and have all that line up.
Ambitious I know
but is it possible ? |
Hi,
You cannot possibly have Pro Tools HD, if you are using it with a Digi003 device. HD is only used with the internal PCI process cards.
Now as far as recording one sound being played at the same time in 4 tape machines plus protools, yes it is possible, You will need to hook up each machines' output to an input on the Digi003. The Digi003 has 8 analog inputs, correct?
You say you "think" this is what he wants, better clear that station up, so you know exactly what he wants to do.
There are two possibilities I can think of:
1.- He wants to record different audio into all 4 tape machines, then overdub into ProTools while playing back the 4 tape machines. This will not work at all, all tape machines you own cannot sync to each other.
2.- He wants to record the same instrument (a cymbal) to 4 tape machines at the same exact time, plus pro tools as well. This can be done, as long as ProTools ALSO records the output of each tape machine AT THE SAME TIME.
This is the setup for that:
5 microphones. One microphone goes into one tape machine, plus input 1 of the Digi003 (which is mic input)
4 tape machines having a MONO output, going to the Digi003 inputs 2-5 line inputs.
THis all gets recorded at the same time on the tape machines, AND pro tools, so it all lines up in ProTools automatically, without a need to line anything up.
Cheers
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clean_and_humble
gettin' sounds
Joined: 13 Jan 2008
Posts: 126
Location: Brooklyn NY
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| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: Tape sync to Pro Tools Similatious recording |
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Ok
Sorry to confuse you
1rst I was told that the new software of Pro Tools 9 and up is all one software, and it is all HD. The only difference between the two versions now are the interfaces. So I am infact using Pro Tools HD. As far as confusing you with what my friend wants to do, you have it correct in the second option you described. He wants to record his hitting of a cymbal onto all 4 tape machines at once over saturating the tapes and recording at a regular level in Pro Tools. The way you described is what we tested however we only did it with one deck to make it easier for a test run. I have my digi003 and my tape machines all connected to a patchbay so it is easier for me to route things.
I had my routing correct but I was getting a few second delay when playing both the direct to protools track and the from tape machine track. I hit record at the same time and both were recording at the same time. I can not figure out why I am getting the delay? [/quote]
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Nick Sevilla
cryogenically thawing
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 3657
Location: Los Angeles California USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:24 am Post subject: Re: Tape sync to Pro Tools Similatious recording |
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| clean_and_humble wrote: | Ok
Sorry to confuse you
1rst I was told that the new software of Pro Tools 9 and up is all one software, and it is all HD. The only difference between the two versions now are the interfaces. So I am infact using Pro Tools HD. As far as confusing you with what my friend wants to do, you have it correct in the second option you described. He wants to record his hitting of a cymbal onto all 4 tape machines at once over saturating the tapes and recording at a regular level in Pro Tools. The way you described is what we tested however we only did it with one deck to make it easier for a test run. I have my digi003 and my tape machines all connected to a patchbay so it is easier for me to route things.
I had my routing correct but I was getting a few second delay when playing both the direct to protools track and the from tape machine track. I hit record at the same time and both were recording at the same time. I can not figure out why I am getting the delay? |
Hi,
Do you mean that you record it all, and then play back each machine along with the protools? NO NO NO.
You need to RECORD IT ALL INTO PROTOOLS at the SAME TIME.
Here:
Microphone 1 goes to tape machine 1 - output of tape machine 1 goes to Pro Tools input 1
Microphone 2 goes to Pro Tools input 2 - done.
You put into record both the tape machine AND protools, and record what is going on in tape machine 1, along with the microphone 2 direct to protools.
ANY deviation from the tape machine will be due to two things:
1.- The tape varying in speed.
2.- Which tape HEAD you are playing to protools from.
These delays cannot be changed or compensated for, because the tape speed WILL vary. As to the delay from the tape machine HEAD, that you can simply realign the TAPE sound recorded into protools, so that the initial attack lines up with the one in ProTools.
BUT, after some time, no matter what, the tape speed changes will be evident when playing back all of this together.
Now, with that said, it might be a cool sound.
But, as far as you getting all tape machines to playback at the same SPEED, "fuggedaboudit" it ain't happening.
As to using a sync like SMPTE code, the only way this can work is when ONE machine is the master, and all the rest follow along.
None of these tape machines have timecode slaving options, do they?
Cheers
PS you are NOT using ProTools HD. I know, I own both versions, with the HD hardware and another with an Avid MBox Pro. so, please get it in your head that you are using REGULAR ProTools. I know, when they changed the name to only "ProTools" and tried to pass it all as the same software, they confused the hell out of all my clients too.
But not me. HD is only available with their expensive hardware. It has a few secret sauce special features you cannot get unless you spend on getting their Complete Production Toolkit, and even then, you will not get the super low latency of the HD hardware. Got it?
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palinilap
buyin' gear
Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 541
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Tape sync to Pro Tools Similatious recording |
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When I do this, I split the source's signal using a mixer, sending one channel directly to the DAW (the channel I monitor from while recording), and the other channel to the tape machine > DAW. Then, in Pro Tools, I nudge the tape machine track back to align with the DAW track, and delete the DAW track. The delay is around 6578 samples @ 7.5 ips.
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