question about copyright on old silent films

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blungo2
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question about copyright on old silent films

Post by blungo2 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:08 pm

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this question, but i wasn't sure where to post it.

For the past few years our local art museum has hosted a silent film night, where local musicians score for some silent films and perform it live. It's a fun event and usually plays to a packed house.

This year i recorded the performance and the recording came out pretty well. Turns out their bunker like, concrete theater has really great acoustics. We're thinking of possibly doing a very small release of the recording. It would be fun to put the movies and music together on a dvd, but i imagine this entails all kinds of copyright issues. I don't know the names of all three movies, but one was Jean Painleve's The Octopus.

Can anyone point me in the right direction to start investigating copyright issues, so that we might legally put out a very limited release of the score with the movies?

Thanks!

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Post by Gregg Juke » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:22 pm

Do you know anyone with an IMDB Pro account? You might look the films up there for some preliminary info. I stress the "pro," because yes, you can go to imdb.com and look them up, but the pro-level membership has extra features that often include contact information.

Do any local colleges or universities have a film historian on-board? What about the theater that runs the series? Where do they get the films from, and the license to run them? And have you given any thought to the copyright process itself? Sync-rights, derivative works, and the like might require you to get a real music/arts attorney involved. You might consider contacting the VLA (Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts).

Some of the films _might_ fall under public domain, but I wouldn't count on that.

GJ

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Post by DrummerMan » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:53 pm

I hate to steer you in this direction, but the folks at the Gearslutz post-production section are generally pretty deep into the professional world of film. They might have some answers for you if nothing comes up around here.

I feel like I've googled "public domain films list" and come up with something useful there before, but obviously just a starting point.
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Post by blungo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:19 am

Gregg Juke wrote:Do you know anyone with an IMDB Pro account? You might look the films up there for some preliminary info. I stress the "pro," because yes, you can go to imdb.com and look them up, but the pro-level membership has extra features that often include contact information.

Do any local colleges or universities have a film historian on-board? What about the theater that runs the series? Where do they get the films from, and the license to run them? And have you given any thought to the copyright process itself? Sync-rights, derivative works, and the like might require you to get a real music/arts attorney involved. You might consider contacting the VLA (Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts).

Some of the films _might_ fall under public domain, but I wouldn't count on that.

GJ
Thanks. No i don't know anyone with an IMD Pro account. I'll check with the museum, but i suspect they didn't license the movies as they weren't charging admission.
Yikes, maybe i'll contact VLA, but this is sounding like we won't be able to do it.

DrummerMan wrote:I hate to steer you in this direction, but the folks at the Gearslutz post-production section are generally pretty deep into the professional world of film. They might have some answers for you if nothing comes up around here.

I feel like I've googled "public domain films list" and come up with something useful there before, but obviously just a starting point.
Thanks. As a last resort, i'll check them. Once i get the names of all the films, i'll check if they're possibly public domain.

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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:38 am

One other possibly helpful tip (because I'm shooting from the hip here)-- PM or e-mail me (Gregg [at] MightyNoStars [dot] com), and I'll try to put you in touch with my man Emil, who in addition to owning one of the hippest comic shops in Buffalo, is an independent film-maker, is involved with the "48-hour filmfest," and is one of the guys that runs the Niagara Film Festival. He also has an IMDB Pro account. He may be able to steer you in the right direction for getting reliable info.

GJ

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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:42 am

PS-- Also, you could consider posting your question in the business/legal section at www.dvxuser.com , an independent film-maker site. There are a lot of West Coast people involved that may have a better idea of who to contact for that sort of thing.

GJ

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Post by blungo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:50 am

PM'ed, thanks!

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Post by fossiltooth » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Many works published between 1923 and 1963 are in the public domain, because their rights had to be extended manually back then:

http://www.publicdomainsherpa.com/copyr ... newal.html

(Incidentally, I think that's a good idea for today as well.)

Here's some info on how to look up what's under copyright and what's in the public domain on the database at copyright.gov:

http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/renewals.html

Unfortunately, there's not always a straightforward "anything made before year "X" is in the public domain. Instead, there's this:
Example: A work that first secured federal copyright protection on October 5, 1907, and was renewed in 1935, would have fallen into the public domain after October 5, 1963. The first act extended the copyright to December 31, 1965; the second act extended it to December 31, 1967; the third act extended it to December 31, 1968; the fourth act extended it to December 31, 1969; the fifth act extended it to December 31, 1970; the sixth act extended it to December 31, 1971; the seventh act extended it to December 31, 1972; the eighth act extended it to December 31, 1974; the ninth extended it to December 31, 1976; and the 1976 Copyright Act extended the copyright through the end of 1982 (75 years from the end of the year in which the copyright was originally secured).

A lot of silent films are in the public domain, but many are not. I'm not sure how much practical use it will be of to you, but try copyright.gov for all the official info on how it works:

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html
As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. For works first published prior to 1978, the term will vary depending on several factors. To determine the length of copyright protection for a particular work, consult chapter 3 of the Copyright Act (title 17 of the United States Code). More information on the term of copyright can be found in Circular 15a, Duration of Copyright, and Circular 1, Copyright Basics.
If you're as much of a nerd as I am, you can check out the explanations in circular 15a:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ15a.pdf
Duration under 1909 Act
Federal standards for copyright duration differ substantially under the 1909 act compared with the 1976 act because of the renewal term contained in the 1909 act. Under the 1909 act, federal copyright was secured on the date a work was published or, for unpublished works, on the date of registration. A copyright lasted for a first term of 28 years from the date it was secured. The copyright was eligible
for renewal during the final, that is, 28th year, of the first term. If renewed, the copyright was extended for a second, or renewal, term of 28 years. If it was not renewed, the copyright expired at the end of the first 28-year term, and the work is no longer protected by copyright. The term of copyright for works published with a year date in the notice that is earlier than the actual date of publication is computed from the year date in the copyright notice.

Effect of 1976 Act on Length of Subsisting Copyrights
The 1976 Copyright Act carried over the system in the 1909 Copyright Act for computing copyright duration for works protected by federal statute before January 1, 1978, with one major change: the length of the renewal term was increased to 47 years. The 1998 Copyright Term Extension Act increased the renewal term another 20 years to 67 years. Thus the maximum total term of copyright protec- tion for works already protected by January 1, 1978, has been increased from 56 years (a first term of 28 years plus a renewal term of 28 years) to 95 years (a first term of 28 years plus a renewal term of 67 years). Applying these standards, all works published in the United States before January 1, 1923, are in the public domain.

Automatic Extension for Works in Renewal Term
Works originally copyrighted after 1922 and renewed before 1978. These works were automatically given a longer copy- right term. Copyrights that had already been renewed and were in their second term at any time between December 31, 1976, and December 31, 1977, inclusive, do not need to be renewed again. They have been automatically extended to last for a total term of 95 years (a first term of 28 years plus a renewal term of 67 years) from the end of the year in which
they were originally secured. For more information about renewal of copyright, see Circular 15, Renewal of Copyright.

Copyright Extensions before 1976 Act
Before passage of the 1976 Copyright Act, Congress enacted a series of nine acts that provided interim extensions for works whose copyright protection began between September 19, 1906, and December 31, 1918, if they were in their renewal terms. Without these interim extensions, copyrights com- mencing during that time would have expired after 56 years, at the end of their renewal terms, between September 19, 1962, and December 31, 1976.

Example: A work that first secured federal copyright protection on October 5, 1907, and was renewed in 1935, would have fallen into the public domain after October 5, 1963. The first act extended the copyright to December 31, 1965; the second act extended it to December 31, 1967; the third act extended it to December 31, 1968; the fourth act extended it to December 31, 1969; the fifth act extended it to December 31, 1970; the sixth act extended it to December 31, 1971; the seventh act extended it to December 31, 1972; the eighth act extended it to December 31, 1974; the ninth extended it to December 31, 1976; and the 1976 Copyright Act extended the copyright through the end of 1982 (75 years from the end of the year in which the copyright was originally secured).

Mandatory Renewal
Works originally copyrighted between January 1, 1950, and December 31, 1963. Copyrights in their first 28-year term on January 1, 1978, still had to be renewed to be protected for the second term. If a valid renewal registration was made
at the proper time, the second term will last for 67 years. However, if renewal registration for these works was not made within the statutory time limits, a copyright originally secured between 1950 and 1963 expired on December 31 of its 28th year, and protection was lost permanently.

Automatic Renewal and Voluntary Registration
Works originally copyrighted between January 1, 1964, and December 31, 1977. Congress amended the copyright law on June 26, 1992, to automatically renew the copyright in these works and to make renewal registration for them optional. Their copyright term is still divided between a 28-year original term and a 67-year renewal term, but a renewal registration is not required to secure the renewal copyright. The renewal vests on behalf of the appropriate renewal claimant upon renewal registration or, if there is no renewal registration, on December 31 of the 28th year. For details about the benefits of making a renewal registration, see Circular 15, Renewal of Copyright.
Hopefully some of that helps!

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Post by blungo2 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:25 pm

Cool thanks!

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Post by Gregg Juke » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:59 pm

PM'd back. I hope it works out...

GJ

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Post by Gregg Juke » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:40 pm

PPS-- Here are a few links that I found that may/may not help. A very cusory look by me led me to think that you might be interested:

* http://www.thanhouser.org/Research/Joe% ... Domain.pdf

* http://www.vex.net/~emily/amsfaq/ams.html

* https://lonelybrand.com/blog/silent-fil ... right-law/

GJ

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Post by blungo2 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:38 am

Thanks again! I'll check them out.

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