Advice sought.

[HamsterWheel]

Hello fellow tapeopers. I'm looking for some advice. I've been on the message board for awhile now but made a new account just to post this message.

I've been a recording engineer for about 18 years now. I've always felt I was good at it but I've made some bad decisions about where I've worked and have never been good at 'hustling' for work. I've moved a fair distance from the studio I started out at and that became a home base for most of my career. As a result, I've lost touch with old clients and haven't been able to get new ones. I'm in NYC right now so you can guess how much competition is out there.

I'll admit to becoming disillusioned with engineering over the past few years. For various reasons. I allowed my self to be in a shitty situation at a crappy studio for far too long. But there were other factors too. Life got in the way a bit.

Now I'm realizing that I do miss it and loved being an engineer. And, honestly at this point I'm not suited for much else. I want to get back into it. I feel like the best thing to do for myself is to start over somehow.

I guess my question is, how do I do that? I could try diving right in but I don't have the best resume. I do have some credits that might catch an eye or two. I've worked hard at a small studio with basic equipment and local artists. I fell out of touch with most consoles and gear. Even with Protools. Don't get me wrong, I'm comfortable with it and I've been using it for over a decade but it's pretty much the same rig. I've only had minimal experience with newer setups. Maybe that doesn't even matter. Maybe I can work with a band and get by with a good assistant. Though I've never worked with one.

I often think I should just start out at the bottom and intern and assist somewhere. But I can't really afford to. And, maybe I'm being too egotistical, but I feel like I did my fair share of running around and cleaning toilets. Not that I feel like it's beneath me. I did all that stuff when I was still an engineer at the studio I worked at. I'd be open to interning if a good opportunity offered itself but I'm not sure how much good it would do me.

So, start from the bottom? Move to a smaller market? Try to assimilate my gear into an already existing studio and try to partner up with someone? It's hard to present myself as an established engineer when I don't have a demo reel or what I feel like are quality examples of my work.

Sorry, for rambling on incoherently and not having a clear question. Maybe, I'm venting as much as looking for advice. Maybe it's too late to do anything about my situation. That would be a fair answer too.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts or insights anyone has. I think it might be just as helpful to others as it could be to me.

[Snarl 12/8]

Sounds like a spiritual quest more than anything else to me. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I never tried to make a living from anything music related because it always looked to me like it required a lot of "hustling" and self-promotion which I've just never felt up to. You gotta shake your ass in the entertainment biz.

This might help.
http://www.amazon.com/Business-Model-Yo ... s+plan+you

[Marc Alan Goodman]

I wouldn't suggest interning per-say, but it might not hurt to find a studio that will let you hang out and lend a hand when you're not doing other work. You'll still be responsible for bringing in your own clients, but at least it will give you an opportunity to meet some people, and hopefully it will earn you a break on the day rate of the studio when you do find bands to bring in.

I don't know of any music oriented studios in new york where the business farms work to the engineers. Pretty much everybody is responsible for bringing in their own clients. So if you want to be making records again, figure out some ways to meet bands! I've never been that great at it personally but Daniel seems to pull them out of thin air, so I know it's possible.

[Gregg Juke]

Questions: Are you single? Do you have children? If "no" to numbers 1 & 2, are there any (family-oriented) plans in the near future? How old are you? (Not that that really matters in-and-of itself, but at a certain age, Ramen Noodles lose their luster, but a small salary can be alright if the right benefits come along with it).

How long have you been in NYC? What area of the country are you from, and is that where you'd like to go back to, or do you see yourself somewhere else?

What is it that you like about engineering? Is there a certain area that you feel "called" to/that you are strong in? (For instance, do you definitely feel like a tracking engineer, or would you rather just mix?). Would you prefer to stay in the engineer domain, or are you more interested in producing?

Can you handle doing a non-music/audio gig while you get things together, or is your burn almost out of control right now?

You mentioned pooling gear with a studio share; do you have enough for your own place? Do you have enough for a well-appointed home studio? Could you take clients part-time at a home studio while working another job to get your feet wet again, while building resume and a demo reel?

What do you need to make financially to stay in New York? What would you need to make if you were to go somewhere else?

What about these head-turning credits? With those in mind, and with all of the time spent as a recordist in the past, why don't you have a demo reel? Do you have a discography? Could you use that to get clients in similar genres of music? Do you really think that you could handle going the intern route if an opportunity presented itself, or are you way too far beyond that?

Are there any styles of music, or any areas of audio production that you wouldn't want to be involved in?

These and a thousand more questions are yours (and only yours) to answer. I'm sure there is/will be a lot of wisdom available from the awesome folks here at TO, but in the end, it's your decision, of course, and your perseverance that will matter most.

GJ

[HamsterWheel]

Thanks guys for taking the time to write out some in depth replies.

I guess in the end I just feel out of touch and that leads to a lack of confidence. I think I just need to find a way to get some sessions happening again. Get a band into a new studio, fumble a bit back into it and get some perspective.

The next step is figuring out how to get that started.

[fossiltooth]

The world has a lot of really good recording engineers. There may be room for a few more, but confidence is really a prerequisite. So definitely build it back up any way you can if you want work.

What the world doesn't have enough of right now are really good musicians. Ever consider picking that back up? (presuming you came from there) Both paths take tremendous amounts of work, constant practice (much more than most people get) and disciplined effort. And if you "fail" at being a musician, you're much more likely to feel fulfilled by it anyway.

In this day and age, working as a musician and working as an engineer are probably equally difficult. (Especially if you want to be doing sound for recorded music, which is what I assume we're talking about.) Both can be done. But confidence, discipline, realism and sustained effort are all key. That, and getting along with people really well and being entirely unafraid of strangers.

If you don't have a network of awesome people who you have mutual trust with, who can also help support your career, and who are also doing great and memorable things themselves -- then you don't have a chance. So in addition to growing confidence through practice and hard work, start meeting people. The kinds of people you've always wanted to meet.

Dream big and start small.

[cgarges]

Look at it backwards. Imagine that you're a guy in a band and you're thinking about hiring someone to record you. Think about all the considerations for that scenario, then think about what would be in your best interest as a recording person to become the guy who gets hired for that gig, based on that you've thought about by imagining that you're the guy in the band. Then when you do get hired for the gig, make it be the best experience possible for the band. Then, if it IS the best experience possible for the band (in the band's eyes, not your own), then they'll come back to work with you again. And they'll tell their friends, etc, etc.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Tragabigzanda]

A really sensible thing to do would be to enroll in a school's music program with great job/internship placement. The two that immediately come to mind are the Clive Davis School of Music at NYU and the Berklee College of Music in Boston (who offer a fantastic online curriculum). I would say enroll for music business rather than production, and hopefully you'll be able to land a decent position with an established studio/label/post-production house within a few semesters.

Then in your free time, get out to shows and meet bands, and offer to record their music at a bargain rate. Try to pick just one or two studios in NYC that you bring your freelance work to. Take it from me, bouncing around between 12 different studios is a great way to learn a TON of problems solving tricks, but it's also really tough to establish a rhythm and get your auditory bearings if the venue is always changing.

[Jon Nolan]

Look at it backwards. Imagine that you're a guy in a band and you're thinking about hiring someone to record you. Think about all the considerations for that scenario, then think about what would be in your best interest as a recording person to become the guy who gets hired for that gig, based on that you've thought about by imagining that you're the guy in the band. Then when you do get hired for the gig, make it be the best experience possible for the band.Then, if it IS the best experience possible for the band (in the band's eyes, not your own), then they'll come back to work with you again. And they'll tell their friends, etc, etc.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

what garges said. it would take me, like, four paragraphs to say this, but this is where it's at. well played, chris. i agree...

[roscoenyc]

Look at it backwards. Imagine that you're a guy in a band and you're thinking about hiring someone to record you. Think about all the considerations for that scenario, then think about what would be in your best interest as a recording person to become the guy who gets hired for that gig, based on that you've thought about by imagining that you're the guy in the band. Then when you do get hired for the gig, make it be the best experience possible for the band.Then, if it IS the best experience possible for the band (in the band's eyes, not your own), then they'll come back to work with you again. And they'll tell their friends, etc, etc.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

what garges said. it would take me, like, four paragraphs to say this, but this is where it's at. well played, chris. i agree...

I'd also echo what Chris said.
That and get yourself a little ProTools home rig so you can mess around and get back up to speed.

[HamsterWheel]

Look at it backwards. Imagine that you're a guy in a band and you're thinking about hiring someone to record you. Think about all the considerations for that scenario, then think about what would be in your best interest as a recording person to become the guy who gets hired for that gig, based on that you've thought about by imagining that you're the guy in the band. Then when you do get hired for the gig, make it be the best experience possible for the band.Then, if it IS the best experience possible for the band (in the band's eyes, not your own), then they'll come back to work with you again. And they'll tell their friends, etc, etc.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

what garges said. it would take me, like, four paragraphs to say this, but this is where it's at. well played, chris. i agree...

I'd also echo what Chris said.
That and get yourself a little ProTools home rig so you can mess around and get back up to speed.

Thanks for all of the advice guys. I really do appreciate it.
To be fair, working with bands is actually one of my strong points. I've always been professional and patient and I've always had their best interests in mind. If anything my experience with working with bands and artists is what separates me from most those who aren't so much engineers but a guy with Pro Tools.

My biggest issue now seems to be getting back into recording. I've just been out of the loop for what feel like forever, even though it's only been a year or two. I suppose it's the same issue every one has, getting clients and getting work. And, I feel, earning the faith of the community I'd work in whether I stay in NY or try a different area. I think I know what I have to do I was just hoping that there was some perspective that I was missing.

Thanks again.