Advice needed for recording guitar, fiddle and vocals

[dix]

[cross-post on gearslutz. i'm thinking this might be a better board for this]

I'm wondering if anyone would care to chime in and give me some opinions on a project I'd like to get right.

I have a session coming up that will involve two players performing live in my studio. I'd like to get as good a recording as possible with the gear I have on hand. The project will consist of a female guitarist and singer, and a female violinist and singer. The style is old-time blues and rag, but I'm not looking to do a "period" recording. The guitarist sings lead on most of the songs with vocals - with the violinist singing backup. About half the songs have no vocal, but I'd like to capture the session as a performance and not switch things around for the instrumental tunes (no overdubs). The guitar is mostly flat-picked, bluegrass style. The violin is aggressive, double-stop country fiddling. They'll need to be in the same smallish room together so sound-rejection considerations are important. Whether they'll have headphones on is yet to be determined.

Here's the equipment list:
1 Peluso 2247
1 TLM 103
2 KM184s
2 Oktava 1-12 SDCs
1 Cascade Fathead
2 SM57s

Manley Dual-Mono pres
4 Apogee Ensemble onboard pres
Peavy VMP pre (one channel)
EL FATSO compressor.

Everything goes through the Apogee A/D

Here's one config I was considering:
Guitar (stereo) Neck = KM184 > PeavyVMP pre / Body = Fathead > Apogee pre
Violin (mono) = KM184 > Apogee pre
Lead Singer = TLM103 > Manley pre > Fatsao
BG Singer = Peluso 2247 > Manley pre > Fatso
[i'm rethinking a bit after my gearslutz post. i may be using my two figure-8 mics more (strategically aimed null points) to minimize leakage]

I know this look like a bit of mish-mash, but I like stereoy sounding guitars so splitting up the km184s (which will have that effect) doesn't bother me. Also, the Peluso will be picking up a lot of the violin so I figure saving the Manley for that dual-roll makes sense.

Any advice or criticism about configs mic placement etc. would be appreciated. ...and if no one wants to help, just writing this up has helped me strategize a plan of attack.

Thanks so much!

[sir hills]

Sounds like it'll be a cool session! Any time you can get more than one person playing in the same room at the same time it's going to yield better results than overdubbing.

I would start a little more minimal, perhaps. I've never used the Manley pres but since they're the nicest with the most tone that you have I might use those on the instruments since they're the one constant throughout. Use the 1 & 2 Ensemble pres (since they have insert points) for the voices & I would play around with the fatso on any of the close mics - instrument & voice. Are they dynamic & "yellers" when they sing? That might cause me to use the fatso on voices...but if their instrument playing is super dynamic I might tickle them with a few db's of the fatso.

Guitar (12th frettish) 184 - Manley - Spend time with positioning to get a nice balance of frequencies. Remember - you can high pass & eq post if need be, but take some time & move the mic around. I've used 184's (& 012's) solo on acoustic with great results.

Violin - fathead - Manley - I tend to lean toward ribbons for the violin family & especially when it's an "aggressive" player. The ribbon will help to retain the body & smooth the shrill stuff. Use the null point to your advantage so that you can get a little space between the mic & instrument without too much bleed from the guitar & voices. Again, spend time positioning.

For the voices - I would start by trying the 103 & 2247 through the Ensemble 1 & 2 pres on each of the singers & pick what sounds best for the woman who is singing more leads first. Maybe patch in the fatso after you get a good sound happening & see if it helps. Do the same with the guitars & pick where the fatso seems to help most. You likely won't need much but it could potentially help give some "tone" to whatever you put through it.

Try using one of the 012's with the # 3 or 4 Ensemble pre or the Peavey & see if you can get a nice balance of the room to be blended with the close mics. It could come in really handy post! Of course, pay close attention to phase & take your time, it'll be worth it in the long run!

[dix]

Thanks for all this great info! Yes, my day job keeps me in VI/MIDI and overdub-land so I always jump at a chance to do live sessions like this.

They're both belters so the FATSO should probably stay on the vox. Possibly the fiddle - that thing gets pretty loud, plus the Warmth settings might be useful.

The Fathead is my newest mic so I've never tried it on anything but horns and electric guitar amps. I hadn't considered it for violin, but I'll try that first. The 184 might be too bright anyway and the 8-pattern will be pointed down at the fiddle and up at the dead ceiling. Strategic placement and baffling should make the 2247 good for the guitarists vocals. The violinist rarely sings while playing so the 103 should be good.

With all this in mind here's my new plan:

Guitar (stereo) Neck = KM184 > Apogee pre / Body = KM184 > Apogee pre
Violin = Fathead > Manley pre > Fatso
Lead Singer = Peluso 2247 > Manley pre > Fatso
BG Singer = TLM103 > PeavyVMP

Your idea to prioritize the instruments is a good one, but it makes sense to keep the KM184s chains identical. Might switch it up though

Check out this interesting pic of Bob Dylan that someone from Gearslutz pointed out to me. It appears the RCA77's tilted so the null is pointed at his guitar with Bob sort of singing over it. The figure-8 points down to the ground and up to Bob's voice and harp.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/so-much-gear-so-little-time/163884d1269089618-girl-north-country-bob-dylan-how-recorded-2993643.jpg

Thanks again!

[dix]

…oh, and yeah. I'll definitely put up a room mic or two. thx!

[Snarl 12/8]

Do they balance themselves well in a room? One approach might be to find the sweetest sounding spot in the sweetest sounding room and let them do their thing into a stereo pair of your best mics into your best pres.
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[dix]

They can. They do, but they have other recordings done like that. I wanted to try a close-mic approach and see what happened. I will however have the Oktavas covering that scenario. The 012s through the Apogees isn't a bad combo at all.

Thanks.

[Jon Nolan]

I'd throw the peluso in figure 8 on vox, tipping it so it rejects the acoustic & close mic the acoustic with one of those small diaphragm condensers (whichever sounds better, regardless of it's badge.) unless the TLM just *has* to be the vocal mic. maybe it'll sound better. in that case, you might have to live with more bleed than a mic in figure 8 will give you

then, i'd prolly just get the fiddler to sing and play into the cascade - especially if she sings while she plays. kind of in a close "overhead" scenario, 45 degrees vertically. maybe a foot or two away.

I'd get the vox/gtr set up, and then move the fiddler/mic around until it sounded awesome.

now, this is a personal taste, but for the kind of music you're talking about, and assuming they'll be playing live together:

I'd bail on the stereo acoustic guitar idea. also, you say the room is small. i'd try a room mic, but bail quickly if it ain't gonna sound good. in that case, you might want to take some of the room out. if you end up wanting more of a dry sound, i've had success mounting some cheap ass auralex panels (left over from the previous tenant) about a foot or so on the back side of any figure 8 mics. lastly, i've actually had some success setting this scenario up with the folks side by side. here's a pic of a set up i did like this:




example of end result: http://soundcloud.com/thiswayband/the-story-of-simon-pure
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[Nick Sevilla]

So,

How did the session go?
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[vvv]

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[dix]

Thanks!

This session got postponed for a few weeks, so I have more time to ponder options.

I was planning on using the Peluso on the guitarist's vox as you describe. I'll probably try the Cascade on the violin like you say as well - but with the tlm standing by. Again, the Fathead is new. I've never tried it on vocals either (just elec guitar and horns). It seems a lot to ask of a $180 mic, but I'll give it a try. She rarely, if ever sings while she plays, so that might work fine. Mounting a bit of acoustic tiling on mic stand is a good idea. Especially if I'm going to be dealing with figure 8 patterns.

The room mics in this plan are more of a fall-back. An alternate micing scheme rather than something to mix with the other mics. These players have other recordings done with just one mic in a room that sound more than adequate. If all my close micing doesn't sound good, I'll have those to fall back on. …and of course they might also prove useful as ambient mics.

I'll definitely let you know how it goes when it goes. Thanks again. …and hey this soundcloud recording sounds real nice. my project is more strippped-down obviously, but these tones would be just right.

[Adam Chesi]

I have a pair of Fatheads and they are extremely versatile, especially for the price. I would definitely put it on violin or female vocals. They are great for smoothing out the rougher highs of violin, and, depending on the vocalist, add a rich tone.

sir hills is very correct, you will likely need to spend some time on placement. Sure, you can often do things later in the mix, but five minutes spent on placing that guitar mic properly.

Don't rule out the room mics just because you have things close mic'd. I made this mistake when I was recording in an old house that had virtually no space. The drums ended up sounding amazing through the room mics, but not anything else. After a few months, I went back, listened to the version I mixed and felt it didn't sound right. I ended up remixing it and just used the room mics instead of my nice reverbs.

My old rule is that if I have an extra channel, and I have the hard drive space/tape space/what have you, I generally try to find a way to use it. You never know what'll come to fruition from it.

Keep us posted!
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Sweetwater Sales Engineer
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[BrendanD]

I'm looking forward to hearing how this session goes, too. I'm going to make a guess that you're recording the Get Happy Stringband, with Meredith Axelrod and Darcy Noonan. If I'm right, it should be a lot of fun; they're great gals and terrific musicians! Meredith has a hell of a voice, though I haven't heard Darcy sing much, mostly play the fiddle. To my ear, Darcy has an unusual-sounding fiddle (hard to describe), and I'll be interested to hear what mic you end up using to capture it.

On the other hand, maybe my guess is wrong, in which case I have a second guess waiting in the wings... but I'd certainly understand if you don't want to confirm their identities. Whoever it is, though, I look forward to hearing the results! Good luck.

[JWL]

Definitely use the ribbon mic on the violin.

I just recorded a local ensemble (violin, accordion, nylon guitar, and 4 percussionists) using 5 ribbon mics, and an oktava 012 SDC for the room, in an old-school no-overdub session. Came out great!

http://www.reverbnation.com/darkfollies
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[dix]

[JWL]

Thanks! I can't remember specific models, I tracked in someone else's studio. They were all new-ish chinese imported ribbons. 2 were Nadys for sure. Regardless of the brand name they were all that same style of chinese ribbon, what Michael Joly calls Medium Ribbon / Long Path” Ribbon Motor Mics.

The room was pretty dead overall, so the room sound is ambience added during the mix.
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