Adding Panned Echo to 424 mkII Mixdown... Possible?

[CBA713]

Greetings.

I'm getting some things together (physical and mental) in preparation for recording my fuzzpop power trio on a TASCAM 424 mkII (cassette 4-track as you well know).

I have an idea for how I'd like to mix it, but I don't know if it's possible. First, let me show you the basic way I'll be recording it:

1 - Drums (3 mics)
2 - Bass Guitar
3 - Electric Guitar
4 - Lead/Backing Vocals


For mixing, I'm figuring that I'll do drums and vocals down the center, then do a slight pan left for the bass and slight pan right for the guitar. However, I'd also like to do a little stereo trick that I'm pretty sure exists and is used frequently, but I don't know if I can do it out of a 424. I think it's called using a "buss", and what I'd like to do is while mixing have a slight delay on the guitar track and hard pan it to the left. So yeah, you'll hear the main guitar track up front on the slight right, and then a quieter echo image of it on the left.

However, it seems to me that I would not be able to do this unless I have access to all 4-tracks going out for mixdown. When you mixdown something off a 424, you basically have to do it with the two RCA outs, right?

If not, please let me know how I could achieve this when mixing down to tape. I'm aware that I could probably do it on a computer, but I'd like to avoid that if possible... and even on a computer I'd still have to use the RCA outs, as bouncing each individual tape track to computer would cause some time sync issues.


Does this query make sense? If not, I can try to clarify.

Thank you very much!

C

[Gregg Juke]

Yeah, gosh, I can't remember what a 424 looks like or what outs it has, but it sounds like it would only have the main outs with RCA, so you'd have to mixdown to another deck (or whatever of your choice).

You could approach this a bunch of ways, but, can you get a second 424? That would provide an easy and fun solution...

GJ

PS-- Really? That's how you want to pan everything?

[drumsound]

I just looked at a couple images of the 424 mkII, and I think you can do what I'm about to explain.

You'd want to take the AUX output from the 424 and patch it to the input of the delay and the output of the delay to the inputs for 5-6 or 7-8 of the 424. You control the level going to the delay from the AUX send on the guitar channel and the delay level in the mix using the trim on the channel (s) you brought the delay return on. I don't see a pan on the 5-6/7-8, so you'd have to deal with hard panned delay by only plugging into one side of 5-6/7-8, or use some sort of stereo effect unit that lets you control the output panning.
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[drumsound]

I just looked at a couple images of the 424 mkII, and I think you can do what I'm about to explain.

You'd want to take the AUX output from the 424 and patch it to the input of the delay and the output of the delay to the inputs for 5-6 or 7-8 of the 424. You control the level going to the delay from the AUX send on the guitar channel and the delay level in the mix using the trim on the channel (s) you brought the delay return on. I don't see a pan on the 5-6/7-8, so you'd have to deal with hard panned delay by only plugging into one side of 5-6/7-8, or use some sort of stereo effect unit that lets you control the output panning.
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[lefthanddoes]

yeah, you can def do that with the effect send/return. I've done it.


Here's the manual
http://homerecording.com/sounds/tascam-424mkii.pdf
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[CBA713]

Hi everyone. Thanks for the tips!

I figured there might be some squirrelly ways to get it to work, but had no idea how.

I realize you can do some extra stuff with the effect sends/returns, but the problem for me was getting the panned effect to be a kind of separate thing instead of just an effect on whatever track it was assigned.

So yeah, this is something I only want to do after the whole thing has been recorded and then use while I'm mixing.

-I will try what drumsound has suggested and see if I can pull that off. The good news is that I understand what you said!

-lefthanddoes, as far as definitely being able to do "that", are you referring to what drumsound has suggested, or might you have another handy way that you could share? I actually just printed out the manual earlier today at work! Does it detail in there somewhere about what we're discussing?

-Gregg Juke... yeah, I know that might not be the best way to pan everything, but it's all I could really think of (so far) without having embarked on the project yet. I'd love to hear whatever other suggestions you might have, even if they're just simple things off the top of your head to get me going.


Thanks everyone!

C

[Gregg Juke]

Are the three mikes on the drums stereo overheads and bass drum?

If so, try-- Overheads hard-panned left and right. Kick drum slightly off-center. Bass guitar slightly off-center (left or right, but just a tiny bit off of the bass drum, mixed to taste). If two guitars, about 3-O'clock and 9-O'clock; if one, panned to one side to taste, and your stereo-trick verb to the other. Lead vocal dead center, backing vocals on the sides to taste (if two, try 11-O'clock and 1-O'clock). Everything out of the way of the lead vocal. If there is a guitar solo and you want it to take center stage, you could pan center for the solo.

Conversely, you could do a "Beatles-pan" and collapse the drums to mono (or mostly mono) and put them along with bass to one side, guitar or guitars to the other, lead vocals center, backing vocals panned accordingly.

GJ

[CBA713]

Hello Mr. Juke.


All of that panning advice is great, but I was under the impression that I wouldn't be able to do all of that if I was recording onto 4 tracks.

I have a Boss digital 16-track and I do panning very similar to what you have suggested... but I didn't think I could do that with a 4-track.

For instance: If I did record drums with two stereo overheads and a kick, I'd only be able to pan them different ways if they were recorded to three separate tracks. Then I'd only have one track left for everything else. So if I decided to bounce those down, they'd all have to go to one track, and I wouldn't be able to pan them anyway.

Am I totally missing something that could open up some sort of never-ending super-panning machine in my 4-track?

I'd love to be able to do all that, but I didn't think I could.

Thanks!



C

[CBA713]

Well holy shit.

I just reread the manual (that helps!) and there are four independent outs on the back of the 4-track for individual tracks! I had no idea that existed or was possible. I mean, sure it's possible, but I guess I just never considered that they included something that helpful. Haha. Shame on me.

Ok, that changes a few things, but I'm still wondering about the mixing options Gregg Juke suggested.


Thanks!

C

[Gregg Juke]

Oh, duh. You _did_ say four-track, and you did say "3 mics," not three tracks. Sorry. You'd have to be bumping down to get that much action out of a four-track, and then of course your panning would be whacked, as you already mentioned.

BUT, you can pan any one track any place in the stereo field, so let's see if I'm reading you right now after a more careful reading of your original post:

You could sub-mix the drums down to Track 1, bass Track 2, guitar Track 3, all vocals Track 4... That sounds like your original plan, yes? If you pan the drums to one side (lots of older recordings from Beatles to Blue-Note jazz have that kind of situation), then put the bass to the same side, just "inside" of the drums, you can still balance with the guitar wider on the other side, and all vox up the middle, but if you're tracking them live, you'd have to blend well so the back-ups don't step on the lead-- BTW, are you tracking everything live, or are you going to be bouncing/over-dubbing?

I dunno, it just seemed like your panning scheme could be more exciting, but I totally spaced on the four-track limitations, which are real. I still think any 3 O'clock/9 O'clock action that you can get would be better than putting drums and vocals center, and bass just slightly off-center, but I'm a "get them out of the way of the lead" kind of guy...

GJ

[CBA713]

Well, this is what I had in mind when I first considered doing the damn thing:

Let it be known that I have a two-channel ART tube preamp and a two-channel ART tube compressor, both rackmounted. I will use both sparingly but I WILL use them.


Track One - Using the four inputs on the TASCAM, I would do snare, kick, close overhead and perhaps a far overhead for "room ambience" if that matters.

Track Two - bass

Track Three - guitar

Track Four - lead vocal and backing vocals


I would not be making the recording a "live" recording... meaning that I would record the drums first (while the band plays along through some sort of segregated sound course like my Boss 16-track), then do bass and guitar overdubs, followed by the vocal overdubs. No bouncing has occurred.

So then I have my four tracks. However, there is no chance that I could get the drums in stereo, so I guess I'll just have to forego that.

The other way with drums is to record three sources on to three separate tracks... kick, snare, OH, then bounce those to a fourth submix track within the unit.

OR I could record four tracks of drums and record those two a separate stereo source, so I could have some stereo drums. But then I'd have to bounce those back to two tracks on the TASCAM, and only have two tracks left! Supposing I could record bass and backing vocals to one of those tracks and guitar and lead vocals to another... or vice versa, but that would have to be done live!

Then, whatever I do, I guess I would either mixdown within the 4-track, or use the four tape outs to get the separate tracks into another mixing board or into a DAW.

I've got no qualms mixing it into a DAW, where I could do another mix, but I'd also like to keep away from a DAW if I can.

Thanks!

C

[lefthanddoes]

Hey C, I was indeed referring to drumsound's very specific well-written instructions on adding effects during mixdown when i said "ive done that."

Back in the day I used to record the drums onto one track, record bass on another track, bounce them together onto track 3 (it was always track 3), then use the other three tracks for two guitars and vocals. It was worth making the final decision on the relationship between the drums and bass, to bounce them together, to get an extra track for a second guitar.

You could also keep everything stereo by ping-ponging. Get stereo drums onto two tracks (an L track and an R track) (on, say, tracks 1 and 2). Then, bounce them with a live take of whatever you're overdubbing, bass or whatever, onto tracks 3 and 4, then bounce that back with whatever, guitar, onto 1 and 2, etc. That way you're making final mix decisions every time you record.

Also, you can always use all four tracks to get solid, fat rhythm section or whatever, and bounce that down to some 2-track source (computer, whatever. I used to use hi-fi VCR, but then I got a CD-R machine, which was perfect, it sounded great) then copy those two tracks onto a new cassette and use the other 2 open tracks for final overdubs.

This is all Beatles shit. But, yeah, they didn't worry about keeping sources stereo.
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[CBA713]

[Gregg Juke]

>>>>Also, you can always use all four tracks to get solid, fat rhythm section or whatever, and bounce that down to some 2-track source (computer, whatever. I used to use hi-fi VCR, but then I got a CD-R machine, which was perfect, it sounded great) then copy those two tracks onto a new cassette and use the other 2 open tracks for final overdubs.<<<<

That's kind of what I was getting at with going to another machine, but a stereo CD-R recorder would be pretty perfect. You could also spend $99 on a Zoom H1 and use it as a "bit bucket" just to bring in and take out stereo audio. Kind of kills the vintage Beatles four-track mood/vibe though...

Bouncing down and ping-ponging is what everybody did (my friend used to use two stereo cassette machines and go back and forth), but the problem with certain bounces, like say you wanted vocals and back-up vocals discrete, would be that you'd be sacrificing EQ decisions and kind of settling on what works best for guitar and bass together (or whatever two or three instruments get bumped), and you wind-up with a compromise that doesn't really work great for any of them (individual sounds).

You're just recording to four-track as an experiment, or to get a certain vibe/period sound, or, or what???? I guess it depends on what rules you have set for yourself how far out of the box you can go to overcome the limitations of the format. If it's authenticity you're looking for, you can't use anything but four tracks. But the bouncing thing can have merit if you're tracking great stuff and don't mind committing to your decisions-- most of the great Motown stuff was recorded on a 3-track machine!

GJ

[CBA713]

Hey dudes.

I'm not going for any kind of sound, really. I have a TASCAM Porta 02, a TASCAM 424 mkII (the 4-track being discussed), a BOSS BR-1600, and Logic on my Macbook Pro.

I'm 31 years old, and first got into any kind of recording at all when a friend of mine let me borrow his 4-track in high school... like 1996? I got really into this band Failure that recorded their third album "Fantastic Planet" by themselves with an ADAT or something, but they did most of their demos on 4-track. So then yeah I got into Elliott Smith and found out about TapeOp and got a subscription. TapeOp was still heavily focused on home/analog recording, but a lot of computer stuff was starting to creep in, which I wasn't interested in.

Eventually I got a BOSS BR-8 which I really enjoyed, then moved on to Logic and my Macbook Pro. Well, that was really boring, so I gave that up after a few years, and went back to the BOSS BR-1600. I do a lot of recording on that, but the thing that really gets me interested is 60s technique and the Beatles and all that.

Things have come full-circle, as I have a pretty bare-bones 90s flavoured fuzzpop band and I'd like to record us, a full record, on my 424. I don't really care how it sounds all that much, but I do want it to sound GOOD. I realize that it's probably going to have to pass through a computer at some point... no big deal.

I'd really just like to have the experience. Call it nostalgia or inspiration or fulfillment of a decade and a half long desire... I just wanna do it on a 4-track. The songs are fucking great anyway so it won't really matter how I do it. Call it Weezer doing "In Utero" on a 4-track.

Then I'll move on to something else!

1) drums
2) fuzz bass
3) fuzz guitar
4) vocals

I may fly those into a computer and echo/hard-pan some of them, but I'm not doing any more than four tracks unless I bounce something.

So there are really no rules besides the fact that I'm kinda pretending like I don't have a BR-1600 or computer. If I use a computer to mix, I'm strictly calling that the "mixing stage". All recording will be done on the TASCAM.


So yeah.

Thanks!

C