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MoreSpaceEcho
on a wing and a prayer
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 Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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off topic, but....we were talking about aliasing in another thread recently...that shaker is a prime example.
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GooberNumber9
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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If you find yourself trying to de-ess some vocals and you can't get the esses to stop being so annoying, it's possible that when the vocals were recorded there was enough flutter echo to really boost those esses, even if you don't hear any "space" on the track. True story (sadly).
Basically, the room WILL EQ pretty much any source in it, so you want the best EQ you can afford, or attempt to reduce the amount of EQ by absorbing or diffusing as much as possible. |
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JWL
carpal tunnel
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| drumsound wrote: | | ALSO try to sing slightly softer, to not excite the room. |
With all due respect, in general this won't help. Room acoustics are, for the most part, linear phenomena, ie, the same proportion of room sound will get in, regardless of volume, all else being equal.
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fossiltooth
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| JWL wrote: | | drumsound wrote: | | ALSO try to sing slightly softer, to not excite the room. |
With all due respect, in general this won't help. Room acoustics are, for the most part, linear phenomena, ie, the same proportion of room sound will get in, regardless of volume, all else being equal. |
Right. But air acts as an insulator of SPL. If ample SPL never gets to the reflective surfaces, and if ample SPL never returns to the mic from the reflective surfaces, the proportion of ambience-to-direct signal certainly can seem lower, making the source sound a bit drier.
But don't take it from me! Record a source at low level, then raise the volume and try again at a significantly higher level. Then, level-match the results and A-B.
Result? Yes, louder vocal sections can excite a room more, and lead to higher ratio of perceived ambience-to-direct sound. I'd need to hear concrete proof that they can't.
That said, "just singing quieter" is probably impractical in most cases! : ) Either way, I'd recommend making sure the room sounds good.
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dfuruta
buyin' gear
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| fossiltooth wrote: | | Right. But air acts as an insulator of SPL. If ample SPL never gets to the reflective surfaces, and if ample SPL never returns to the mic from the reflective surfaces, the proportion of ambience-to-direct signal certainly can seem lower, making the source sound a bit drier. |
Air actually doesn't absorb much energy, and what it does is mostly high frequencies, not the midrange that'll be fucked in an untreated room.
Here's a calculator I found to play with: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm. At 10kHz, you lose 0.16dB every meter. So, that's substantial! But, at 5kHz, only 0.04. So, whatever nasty ambience you've got isn't going to be attenuated that much by the air, at least in the mids. And the ratio of reflected to direct is the same: if you lose 10dB due to air when you're quiet, let's pretend, that'll still be the case if you're loud–dB is a measurement of ratios, right?
Since the problem with doing vocals in an untreated room is largely the effect of room modes in the midrange (as opposed to the high frequencies), we can pretty much ignore atmospheric absorption. And, room modes are still in effect if you're quiet–unless you move the walls, the standing waves are still there!
EDIT:
What does "exciting the room" mean? I mean, when I record something loud in the basement the pipes and stuff buzz, but I don't expect that's what people are talking about. |
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MoreSpaceEcho
on a wing and a prayer
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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i certainly think, with drums at least, that the room responds very differently if you're wailing on them vs playing softly.
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Gregg Juke
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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>>>>That said, "just singing quieter" is probably impractical in most cases! : )<<<<
Probably really impractical, not knowing the material being recorded whatsoever...
Totally off-topic, but the above phrase in reverse is what lazy live engineers used to say to us all the time:
"We need more monitor; we can't hear anything."
"Hey, whaddayouse wants??!?? SING LOUDER!!!!"
GJ |
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dfuruta
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| MoreSpaceEcho wrote: | | i certainly think, with drums at least, that the room responds very differently if you're wailing on them vs playing softly. |
Could this just be that more of the reflected sound is above the noise floor of the room/whatever else is happening?
Or that the drums themselves respond differently? I mean, obviously the tone is different when you hit really hard. |
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fossiltooth
carpal tunnel
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| dfuruta wrote: | | fossiltooth wrote: | | Right. But air acts as an insulator of SPL. If ample SPL never gets to the reflective surfaces, and if ample SPL never returns to the mic from the reflective surfaces, the proportion of ambience-to-direct signal certainly can seem lower, making the source sound a bit drier. |
Air actually doesn't absorb much energy, and what it does is mostly high frequencies, not the midrange that'll be fucked in an untreated room.
Here's a calculator I found to play with: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm. At 10kHz, you lose 0.16dB every meter. So, that's substantial! But, at 5kHz, only 0.04. So, whatever nasty ambience you've got isn't going to be attenuated that much by the air, at least in the mids. And the ratio of reflected to direct is the same: if you lose 10dB due to air when you're quiet, let's pretend, that'll still be the case if you're loud–dB is a measurement of ratios, right?
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Good point and good question.
All I can say is that one test worth doing to discover a meaningful answer would be to play a signal from speaker at a low SPL in a fairly "live" room, and then play that same signal at a variety of significantly higher SPLs. Then, you could level match the signals and put them up to a perceptual blind test.
My personal experience suggests that a significantly lower SPL signal would cause less-pronounced reflections in the average medium-sized room, but I'm open to being proven wrong with level-matched sound samples that suggest otherwise.
I can tell you that in a large venue, lecture hall or large recording room, I'll often notice an audible and distinct slap-back on loud notes or words, but not on quiet ones. It's true that the absolute level of the reflection comes up with the added SPL, and that's certainly a factor, but I've always assumed the relative level does as well. That's what it seems to sound like, at least.
I'd be surprised if an accurate test didn't bear that out that guess, but as always, I'm open to evidence.
This (incredibly dorky, nearly useless, but totally fascinating) subject almost deserves its own thread!
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joninc
george martin
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| radionowhere wrote: |
Part of the reason I ask is that I'm about to lay down about $1,500 for a nice mic, but am wondering whether I might be better served saving that $ for studio time instead. I'd much rather get the mic and track at home, but...
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this is an interesting thread. i think anyone could construct a workable vocal room at home - assuming there isn't tons of noise from outside to compete with.
BUT - there are so many more variables involved in getting a vocal sound like that!
1. JD may be singing through a mic worth significantly more that $1500. A TLM 103 does not equal a U47 or elam 251.
2. your perception of the vocal sound has everything to do with the context you are hearing it in. ie: the mix.
are you gonna be able to mix as well as Tom Lord Alge?
can you balance and separate elements with the same clarity and separation?
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i don't mean to say IN ANY WAY that you can't do something really cool at home with a tlm 103 or 4047 or a P12 (love this mic) in your bedroom, you probably can. but it's important to realize that there are lots of other elements at work in arriving at this desired sound.
i'd look to see if you can rent a higher end mic for a day or 2 rather than buy a $1500 mic.
but, if you are gonna buy, i also second the idea of trying a few mics in a shootout.
i use my SM7 99% more on lead vocals than my tlm103. it's a $350 mic!
and what sounds great on one singer might sound crappy on the next so you gotta remember that no single mic will be the ultimate for every singer/context.
good luck!
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MoreSpaceEcho
on a wing and a prayer
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| dfuruta wrote: | Could this just be that more of the reflected sound is above the noise floor of the room/whatever else is happening?
Or that the drums themselves respond differently? I mean, obviously the tone is different when you hit really hard. |
well, even if you're just tapping on 'em, the reflections are gonna be way above the noise floor. certainly the tone of the drums changes as you hit harder, but i think there's more to it than that. i've read people talking about 'the room compressing' when you're playing at a certain level, and i think there's something to that. i dunno. pure speculation here. i've no idea really.
oh, and +1000 on the sm7 over the tlm103.
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dfuruta
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| MoreSpaceEcho wrote: | | well, even if you're just tapping on 'em, the reflections are gonna be way above the noise floor. certainly the tone of the drums changes as you hit harder, but i think there's more to it than that. i've read people talking about 'the room compressing' when you're playing at a certain level, and i think there's something to that. i dunno. pure speculation here. i've no idea really. |
I've wondered about that also–there's definitely something different when the sounds are loud, but it could be any number of things. It would be really interesting to hear the science behind this, if anyone knows!
With the noise floor thing I guess I was thinking that one might be recording drums along with guitars or whatever, and so the other instruments might swallow up lower level reflections. If you're recording solo that's not a concern, of course. |
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drumsound
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| MoreSpaceEcho wrote: | | i certainly think, with drums at least, that the room responds very differently if you're wailing on them vs playing softly. |
Damn straight it does!
| Gregg Juke wrote: | >>>>That said, "just singing quieter" is probably impractical in most cases! : )<<<<
Probably really impractical, not knowing the material being recorded whatsoever...
Totally off-topic, but the above phrase in reverse is what lazy live engineers used to say to us all the time:
"We need more monitor; we can't hear anything."
"Hey, whaddayouse wants??!?? SING LOUDER!!!!"
GJ |
I actually often find myself having singer slightly softer, and getting really good results. I find pitch is often better, the end of phrases have less change in volume, because the singer has more air AND it doesn't excite the room as much (if having the room excited is a problem).
| MoreSpaceEcho wrote: | | dfuruta wrote: | Could this just be that more of the reflected sound is above the noise floor of the room/whatever else is happening?
Or that the drums themselves respond differently? I mean, obviously the tone is different when you hit really hard. |
well, even if you're just tapping on 'em, the reflections are gonna be way above the noise floor. certainly the tone of the drums changes as you hit harder, but i think there's more to it than that. i've read people talking about 'the room compressing' when you're playing at a certain level, and i think there's something to that. i dunno. pure speculation here. i've no idea really.
oh, and +1000 on the sm7 over the tlm103. |
I can't comment to the science, but I can and do notice a difference tone in room mics based on how loud players (and their instruments) are.
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goose134
takin' a dinner break
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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In a very unscientific study for a recent project, I had the singer try out the mic in the room (very live wood paneling, tile floor) at various distances away from the mic. Then we tried it in the booth which was treated. He preferred the sound of the much deader room. I agreed with him. It wasn't like we were trying to get a sound that was right out of a concert or anything. You have so much more control and eliminate a lot of variables with a small, treated room.
For what it's worth, it was recorded on a Shure KSM 32
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JWL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Close-Up Vocals: Does the Room Really Matter? |
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| fossiltooth wrote: |
But don't take it from me! Record a source at low level, then raise the volume and try again at a significantly higher level. Then, level-match the results and A-B. |
I agree, this would be instructive. I've never tried such a test but all the theory I've studied suggests that the level matched results would be similar. I encourage someone to try this test!
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