Is offering to work for free treading on pro's toes?

[James B]

Thanks for all the advice. I decided against putting up a poster up for now but I think I am going to do a few free recordings for bands of my choosing on my own terms, mostly because I do actually need to make these recordings as part of my degree submissions. If they're interested in recording more than just a few tracks to put online I'm going to insist on at least some kind of deal depending on sales even though that requires a level of honesty I'm probably naive to expect and surely won't provide me with more than enough cash for a few beers, but it's something. I've actually had more luck than I expected approaching bands online, if nothing else I'll get to know a few local musicians.

In reply to the post before this one, I live in a reasonably sized city with a handful of studios (Cardiff, Wales) so I don't think the market is necessarily saturated although I wouldn't consider opening a studio here (not that I'm thinking of that anyway) as the music scene is poor/ small right now. As far as I know, studios here don't really take interns as they're usually too small and don't want some kid getting in the way. At least that was the response I got when looking for internship a couple of years ago.

[gavintheaudioengineer]

A little OT, but...

As someone who works out of a small studio in a small scene town in the UK, I can safely say that it's certainly not the case that I don't want a kid in the way.
If you're looking for interning, then you need to understand that every medium/large town in the UK has a college that offers a music tech course. That means that the studio owners are inundated with requests for interns/work experience every single year- mainly since the students professional development modules require them to make contact with local studios. It's simply not possible to wade through and reply to them all.

So if you haven't had a reply, or you did and it was a little short- don't take offence, it's probably not personal.

I have 2 guys that I have in as assistants. Why did I choose them? One of them came through a workshop project as a student who simply 'had it' in terms of being able to help out calmly. The other made the effort to come down, knock on the door (between 9.30am and 10am when I was there but the band wasn't), shake my hand, speak to me as a human being and put across both an enthusiasm to work as well as a calm and respectful nature. I asked him to stay for the day and he's been with us ever since. I've never brought someone in based on an email.

They both get tips and beer (that's more than free) and have no overheads (no pun intended). The owner would have no problem allowing them to dry hire once I'm happy they know what's what, and the likely-hood is that he'd also give them smaller, easier projects as engineers if they came up.

So yeah, there are ways. Using your feet is one of them

[tjcasey1]

What a great thread. I agree with all of the above.

I've also sworn off recording anyone for free except for two of my friends (we have a lot of fun together). Everyone else pays. And if I'm not into the music, I don't take the gig. Life's too short to listen to shitty music.

You'd think that people would appreciate a freebie, but they don't - they act like they're paying you $200 an hour. Screw that. Don't go that way - refer them to a studio you know of, and let the owner know that you referred them.

[Beat Poet]

You'd think that people would appreciate a freebie, but they don't - they act like they're paying you $200 an hour. Screw that.

Well-observed and very true, those types of people just aren't worth the time of day. What was it somone said somewhere, "do you want something free or something good?".

[lyman]

What was it somone said somewhere, "do you want something free or something good?".

My favorite way to put it is: "I can work fast, cheap, or good. But you can only pick two."

[James B]

Coming back to this thread after a few weeks and some of this advice is starting to hit home. Some guys seemed to assume that I didn't know what I was doing which was a pain, I'm not against taking advice but when they're clearly clueless it's difficult to deal with.

Then again, some of the live sessions I've done for a local radio station have been very useful. Trying to get several songs recorded in a couple of hours doesn't leave much room for experimentation but the pressure at least make me focus.

But as I may have said before, I need to be using the studios as part of my degree and if I wasn't doing this for free I'd probably be doing nothing. I'm thinking that my best option is to be more selective and insist on seeing bands live before inviting them in.

Just thought I'd update in case anyone in a similar position finds this thread.

[Marc Alan Goodman]

You set your own value in this business. If anybody tries to tell you that you're ruining "their industry" by not charging enough just ignore them, they're idiots.

The trick to getting good at recording is to do it all the time. Eventually if you want to keep doing it all the time you'll have to figure out how to make yourself valuable and to set that value, but for the time being do whatever you need to in order to work with good people. You'd be amazed how much better recordings sound if the musicians play well in the first place, and you'd be amazed at how much time you can waste trying to make crappy musicians sound acceptable. Just keep in mind that just because you're doing it for free doesn't mean you're not worth anything. If you let people with attitudes walk all over you you'll burn out fast.

[supafuzz]

When I first started I offered recording for free to some of my friends but no one took me up on it. Then when I started charging those same friends paid me for recording. In between those events I had been honing my skills recording my own projects and got my first producing job putting together a local recording artist compilation "Upstate Manhattan" for 207 records. So having my name on something that was well received and made the front page of the local paper and had a segement on an award winning cable tv show ["Cool In your Code"] gave people confidence and me the appearance of professionalism. People want to pay for something they value. If you're working for free it's possible that can be precieved as no or low value. Perception has a lot to do with gettingf work and people trusting you with their creative output and hard earnbed money.

Now conversly if you're charging $75 per hour and you're just starting out with an m-box or similar prosumer gear in an untreated bedroom or basement it's the same thing you wont be creating confidence and the preception as an amatuer will be obvious.

In this profession you need gear, experience and skill. Now the first thing takes a huge investment of money, the 2nd is a huge investment of time and the 3rd comes from proper and ongoing continual practise. Even if you don't have clients you can practise mic placement , proper levels/gainstaging, sound manipulation and editing. It can help if you're a musician and can set up mics and record yourself but not necessary. You can record sound effects or ambient noise...it's not necessary to wait for a band..go find a singeer songwriter and charge them a small amount maybe just a per day rate or project rate.

As far as stepping on a pro's toes, you will never attract the level of band or musician that patronize profession recording studios....[unless you have the gear and proper space] but even then your lack of experience will come through, expediency and problem solving are a huge part of what we do. The ability to get the same result in any number of different ways using different pathways only comes with experience. People skills cant really be taught but comes thru hundred of interactions sometimes in really stressful/uncomfortable situations and you need to know how to make things right.
So free, not really, inexpensive yes

[James Anderson]

word gets passed around because of great work not free work.

if you're trying to get recognized then do great work - if you're intention is to do this for a living then i'd suggest finding a local group that blows your mind. invite to take them to a local studio for a day on your dime and record a piece you'd be proud to show people. you win because you'll get better sounds than a rehearsal room that are easier to work with, the band wins because they get a good recording they could potentially use (even if just for a demo or grant) and the studio wins because they get the day rate. hopefully you'll blow their minds and you'll be the hot kid in town in no time. if you're intimidated to go to a local studio then don't be - let the engineer do the session and you'll learn a ton just from watching him/her. you can always take the session away for mixing/overdubs and still be an engineer on the session.

i still do free work sometimes but only for something I truly believe in that won't get finished if i didn't. and only for folks that respect me and that i have a working relationship with.

but experience tells me that free work never gets the same respect as paid. I was surprised and disappointed to discover this but it's been true in my 8 years of recording.

[Grinder]

Is offering to work for free treading on pro's toes?

If you work for free, you are only treading on your own toes if theres no other pay-off for you... And I guarantee that no matter how motivated you are, a total lack of pay-offs will influence your work negatively..

If someone would pay you nothing to do something rather than pay someone else something to do something, either the demand side has no opportunity or interest in buying the other service, or the demand side is not offering a service that can carry the cost...

Gustav