Thoughts on a concert

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alex matson
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Thoughts on a concert

Post by alex matson » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:17 am

Just got back from seeing The War On Drugs at the Crystal Ballroom. I have to get up in less than six hours from now, so I'm going to make this short.
WHY do sound guys crank the bass to the point where it starts to hit your ears like cannons?
WHY are center fills for the front rows not standard?
The band had three different keyboard setups, and aside from a piano intro, I couldn't hear much of any of them. They had a Prophet 12 and an ARP Quadra I was really looking forward to hearing. But in the second row, all I could hear was the roar of four guitar amps, the kick and snare, bass, and some vocals - no actual discernible lyrics.

I love this band, and I loved the album. i enjoyed the show in spite of these sonics, because i got there an hour before doors and managed to get right up front at a 1000-seater. But the experience reminded me of when I was playing venues this size, and was often told after a show that my keyboards couldn't really be heard - especially after we went to in ears and my amp went away.

What say you?

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Post by Snarl 12/8 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:11 am

I'd say, for most owners, running a venue is about adequacy, not optimization. At least that's what my eyes and ears tell me. They're trying to make as much money as possible, not give that guy in the second row a sublime audio experience.

Oh, and did you try hanging out by the FoH guy? If there's anybody the sound is optimized for, it'd be him or her.
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Re: Thoughts on a concert

Post by vvv » Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:16 am

alex matson wrote: ... managed to get right up front at a 1000-seater.

What say you?
It's good to see but, like Snarl said, FOH mixer position if ya wanna hear.
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Re: Thoughts on a concert

Post by jslabovitz » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:45 am

A couple of years ago I saw The Tallest Man on Earth *twice* when he was on tour. I happened to be in Milwaukee (WI) and saw him at the Pabst Theatre, a classic auditorium of about the same capacity as the Crystal. The show at the Pabst was great and the sound was wonderful.

Then I saw him again at the Crystal, a venue I've been to several times before. Sadly, I found the sound to be simply awful, in comparison with the same show at the Pabst. Everything was very boomy and distorted. It was literally painful, and I didn't even stay for the whole show, and in fact haven't been back since.

At the time, I heard the Crystal had just upgraded their sound system. Perhaps they were working out the bugs...?
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Post by lyman » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:21 am

Maybe because of where you were standing/sitting you were hearing too much of the backline and not enough foh. Could be that the person mixing thinks of guitars as more integral to the arrangements and the keys as an "icing on the cake" thing that if you can hear it, great but if not, no biggie. This is all speculation.

It's always interesting to see a band on different nights in different venues.

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Post by GooberNumber9 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:23 am

There is a belief among some that the low frequencies are the most important. I've heard live sound engineers at some decent local venues say this. Also there is a typical low end speaker setup that runs mono low frequencies to subs that are on opposite sides of the stage, creating bad constructive interference between them. Combine room nodes, spaced mono subs, and a belief that more bass is always better and you get some points in a room that seem to be almost fatal with low end. In a lot of rooms, you can tune your low end amount by moving around a bit to find nodes, assuming the engineer has left any fader uncranked. And of course +1 for being as close to the mix position as possible.

In terms of fills for front and center audience members... I can't figure out how I would do that if I wanted to. Whatever is pointed there is going to have to compete with the stage spillage and not spill back onto the stage itself. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble and expense just to improve the sound on the off-chance that someone who will actually notice the difference (1% of the population?) will also want to be in the spot where they should be expecting the worst sound quality.

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Post by floid » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:10 pm

in their defense, live sound guys are sometimes just trying to find a way to make the rest of the band heard under/over/around some dimed amp stacks. and yeah, walk around until you find the best mix. i often find it roughly half way between foh and stage, and then left or right for balance.
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Post by vvv » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:25 pm

Quick story I may have told before:

Back in the early 80's I saw Motorhead inna club called Studio 1 Live in Champaign, IL.

They were so loud, it pretty much sounded the same anywhere in the main room of the club.

They were so loud, Lemmy got drunk and you couldn't tell.

They were so loud, Lemmy fell face-first offa the stage and on top of his bass and you couldn't tell.

They were so loud, Lemmy got back up on the stage and resumed playing and you couldn't tell.

That, my friends, was a show to remember.

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Post by GooberNumber9 » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:59 am

floid wrote:in their defense, live sound guys are sometimes just trying to find a way to make the rest of the band heard under/over/around some dimed amp stacks.
This is a good point. Sometimes the bass player brings so much rig to a show that there's not even any bass in the PA and it's still painfully loud. Live sound would be a lot easier if there were no cymbals or bass amps.

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Post by comfortstarr » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:59 am

Heh... former bass player in a touring band here. I built the 2 x 15 rig to overcome the output of the goddamn Fender Twin! But you're absolutely correct. Low stage volume usually equals good sound. We tried like hell to control stage volume. Success was pretty much determined by the following formulae: size of crowd X attention level of crowd X (booze - drugs (excepting hallucinogenics)) = stage volume.

I excepted hallucinogens because the very one time that ever happened the only impact was my feeling a strong desire to turn up the volume. Surprisingly, playing-wise it was fine, I just wanted it as loud as the cosmos.

I'm so bummed by live venue sound. That, along with having a 5 year-old, along with a total lack of patience, has significantly and sadly curtailed my consumption of live shows. Saw Kurt Vile outdoors in Minneapolis this summer... it was a mush. And we were nicely positioned (wasn't a huge event). Saw a well received local band at a popular local club a few months ago... had to go home and stream their record to get a sense of what I'd just "heard." I don't think there's any one culprit and I don't know a workable solution.

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Post by wren » Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:17 pm

GooberNumber9 wrote:In terms of fills for front and center audience members... I can't figure out how I would do that if I wanted to. Whatever is pointed there is going to have to compete with the stage spillage and not spill back onto the stage itself. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble and expense just to improve the sound on the off-chance that someone who will actually notice the difference (1% of the population?) will also want to be in the spot where they should be expecting the worst sound quality.
Actually, I often use front fills nowadays when I'm setting up in a venue that doesn't have a permanently installed system (and also sometimes when they do. It depends, like everything else we talk about). You can't use any old speaker (they have to have pretty specific dispersal patterns to not cause destructive interference with the main PA) and I never have them very loud, but the difference is not subtle and I've had a lot of "laypersons" comment positively on them ("Wow, the vocals are so clear tonight!", etc.). And if I were to tour as FOH for a band doing small(er) club gigs, the second or third thing I'd probably want to bring (after mics and maybe something else, and this would obviously be dependent on the kind of music) would be a good powered front-fill or three.

I don't want to weigh in on the rest of the discussion too much because there's no need for that kind of rant, but...yeah, I pretty only much go to classical concerts or basement metal shows anymore. Every now and then I'll think, "It can't be as bad as I remember it," then I go to a show and realize that it is and I just forgot. The good news is that I have enough of a reputation in the town where I live that if a friend's band is playing somewhere and I want to go see them, they're usually thrilled to let me do sound that night.

But also, as someone who's done a lot of live sound: I totally understand and sympathize when, say, the bass or guitar is just too damn loud. Nothing you can do about a musician like that, and my policy (if they don't listen to me and turn down) is to let them be too loud at the expense of the sound of the show rather than turn everything else way the hell up and kill the audience's ears.
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Post by boid » Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:53 am

Well, second row is going to give you crappy sound experience in most venues.
except when there's not an ampeg 8x10, two guitarplayers turned all the way up and a hard bashing drummer... i think that some times that's the bands fault.


on the other hand i've seen someone mix with industrial foam ear plugs in one of the top music venues in berlin, so what do I know.
It was ridiculously loud and bright, so the sensible thing to do to that guy was - of course - to put in earplugs.
and so HE got a balanced overall sound with earplugs in his ears- of course - he boosted the highs by ridiculous amounts.


Is there another explanation than that he's a moron? serious question

I mean, I understand that some people like it loud and especially people who mix a lot get used to it and turn up some more.

But what goes on in your mind if it feels to loud for YOU 70 feet away from the speakers, put ear plugs in and turn up some more.
Who in the audience would want it louder?! people right next to the PA?

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Post by GooberNumber9 » Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:04 am

wren wrote:
GooberNumber9 wrote:In terms of fills for front and center audience members... I can't figure out how I would do that if I wanted to. Whatever is pointed there is going to have to compete with the stage spillage and not spill back onto the stage itself. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble and expense just to improve the sound on the off-chance that someone who will actually notice the difference (1% of the population?) will also want to be in the spot where they should be expecting the worst sound quality.
Actually, I often use front fills nowadays when I'm setting up in a venue that doesn't have a permanently installed system (and also sometimes when they do.
Actual curiosity, not an argument: Assuming the venue is too small to fly front fills above the stage, where would you put them? Next to the stacks facing inwards? I was imagining a venue too small for either of those options. Of course the venue mentioned by the OP does seem to have places one could put downfills or sidefills. It probably pays to be less pessimistic about the average listener, too.

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Post by roscoenyc » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:59 am

A factor that hasn't been mentioned.

I have played at that venue many times on tour. Never mixed sound there but that is one Very Tricky Room starting with the horror of the corner stage.

I'm not even sure if the sound system 'lives' there.

There is a balcony, the house is often split in 2 between drinking and non drinking with a big division between the 2. It's flat out odd. Nothing is symetrica.l the way they have it set up there are tons of simple problems right from the start.

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Post by wren » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:26 pm

GooberNumber9 wrote:
wren wrote:
GooberNumber9 wrote:In terms of fills for front and center audience members... I can't figure out how I would do that if I wanted to. Whatever is pointed there is going to have to compete with the stage spillage and not spill back onto the stage itself. It just doesn't seem worth the trouble and expense just to improve the sound on the off-chance that someone who will actually notice the difference (1% of the population?) will also want to be in the spot where they should be expecting the worst sound quality.
Actually, I often use front fills nowadays when I'm setting up in a venue that doesn't have a permanently installed system (and also sometimes when they do.
Actual curiosity, not an argument: Assuming the venue is too small to fly front fills above the stage, where would you put them? Next to the stacks facing inwards? I was imagining a venue too small for either of those options. Of course the venue mentioned by the OP does seem to have places one could put downfills or sidefills. It probably pays to be less pessimistic about the average listener, too.
Ah, now this
GooberNumber9 wrote:Whatever is pointed there is going to have to...not spill back onto the stage itself.
makes sense.
Sorry, that really isn't meant to be condescending at all - I too hate flown/hung front fills because the spillage is awful (as you note), and I personally avoid using them at all cost if I can.

I place them on/across the front of the stage, at the downstage edge. At what angle depends on stage height (I basically want them pointed at the front row somewhere between the chest and the face), and how many and what I want to use depends on what the mains are and what their coverage is. I literally placed a couple monitor wedges facing the "wrong way" once when the stage was really low but the front badly needed fills.

You (hopefully) only need to cover the first 2 or 3 rows, so they really don't need to be loud at all. They just help with clarity and intelligibility, and also help keep the directionality of the sound make it seem like it's coming from the stage rather than from wherever the mains are (probably up and to the side from the perspective of the first couple rows).

Does that make sense? I just read back over it and I'm not sure it does.
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