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concrete block walls

 
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1964
ass engineer


Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:30 pm    Post subject: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Hello,

I am converting a shed/garage space into my rehearsal/recording space.

It has cinder block walls on all four sides. My eventual goal is to soundproof it as much as possible so that I can rehearse with my band and play loud. I have a long way to go...

My question is about the walls. There is one barn door thing that I want to replace with a wall.

Should I fill in that space with more cinder block OR a typical 2x4 framed wall with insulation? I am wondering the difference between the 2 options. Which one would provide better soundproofing options is my main question. Are cinder block walls good for anything? thank you,
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JWL
deaf.


Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 1868
Location: Maine

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:20 pm    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Cinder block walls have a lot of mass, which is good. That will make a great outer leaf. If you want to build a room within a room, for good soundproofing, you will be in good shape to do so.

As far as filling in the door, you could go either way. I'd probably go for more cinder blocks for consistency but if there are other reasons to frame it that works too.
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1964
ass engineer


Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Thanks for the response.

One other aspect would be the insulation factor of a cinder block wall vs. a 2x4 wall w/ typical pink insulation.

I forgot to mention that I will also be living there, so good insulation is important as well.

Room within a room sounds very interesting to me... I just hate giving up square footage since it is already a tight space...
but I will probably have to do something like that to achieve the level of soundproofing I need to keep neighbors happy.
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norton
buyin' a studio


Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Cinder block walls are decent for the outer shell... Their min weakness is physical transmission (tapping etc). Those sounds go right through concrete.

The barn door: I'd recommend going with standard wood construction. 2x6 is standard for exterior walls and will accommodate more insulation which will be good for sound transmission and thermal insulation. Concrete block walls would be more expensive.

If you are planning on building walls inside your concrete shell, I'd recommend steel studs 24" oc. Floppy wall assembly's are the highest performers. It would also be a good idea to create a condensation barrier between your concrete walls and your interior wall. Plastic sheeting, styrofoam insulation sheets etc.

And don't forget the ceiling! As much insulation as you can throw at it, and some form of decoupling....resilient channel, clips etc.
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1964
ass engineer


Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply.
I'm attaching some images.
This is the part of the garage/shed that I will use for rehearsal and recording.

The purple things are the barn doors with foam insulation from home depot inside of their frame. I'm actually getting a new roof in the next few weeks. It will be metal as well but 24 gauge, so better than home depot stuff (29 gauge).

And it will have radiant barrier decking beneath the metal to keep heat out. So the roof will be a big upgrade from what it currently looks like. Rotted wood will be replaced as needed because some of it is bad on roof.

You can see my starting of insulation in between the rafters. After the new roof I plan on finishing this insulation method. Not sure if it is a bad way of doing it or not, but it was what made sense to me. 2x4 framing on roof with 24" centers. That won't change.

The purple barn doors are what I want to replace with a wall and 36" wide solid core door. The room is roughly 24' long by 10' wide.



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floid
re-cappin' neve


Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 741
Location: in exile

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Adding both decking and drywall puts a lot of extra weight on that roof. 2x4 rafters with no bracing scheme might not hold it.
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1964
ass engineer


Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Yeah, I was definitely thinking about that. The guys doing the roof and the other guy working on some of the inside stuff said that it shouldn't be a problem. But I've never done this before so who knows.
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mrc
re-cappin' neve


Joined: 23 Nov 2003
Posts: 617
Location: Dead Center, Bible Belt, USA

PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Go to insulation 4 less and check out Prodex. 19db of sound transmission reduction in 13/64, and r16 insulation. They also have one with a wood looking finish, light or dark, with the same sound spec., and r10 value. It's going in my studio, when I get to that point, soon. Also absorption and diffusion.[list=][/list]

Last edited by mrc on Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1964
ass engineer


Joined: 13 May 2009
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Thanks for the info. I am reading about it right now on that site. Sounds like pretty good stuff.
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norton
buyin' a studio


Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Prodex looks interesting for building solutions in heavy humidity locations.

I don't think It's going to deliver in the acoustic transmission area like fiberglass.

Acoustic claims are many time very misleading, or at least difficult to interpret. For example, is prodex claiming their product will add 19 db of sound isolation to a wall assembly? Or were they able to achieve 19db of isolation in total with prodex in a wall?

Two VERY different things.

The thing you want fiberglass for.... Is to fill the cavity space with material that sucks up sound waves. Which it does pretty effectively in the high to mid range.

If it were my project, I'd spray foam the underside of the roof deck for a vapor barrier r10+ then I'd use r19 or better to fill the cavity between my framing and my ceiling, for acoustic and thermal benefit. I'd at the very least hang resilient channel on the framing and attach gg Sheetrock to that channel.

I wouldn't monkey around with any product tht wasn't proven to be effective though multiple multiple installations. The cost/effort to solve problems at the construction phase is just too great.
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mrc
re-cappin' neve


Joined: 23 Nov 2003
Posts: 617
Location: Dead Center, Bible Belt, USA

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Agreed. I emailed them about it. They recommend at least 1 inch air gap. On their install pages they show the product installed with some sag between supports. I have existing walls, with insulation, boards and wood siding. I was going to gap it with 1 1/4 inch resilient channel, and then install 8lb Roxul boards gapped on top of that, with Safe and Sound Roxul super traps in the wall corners, and the 8lb boards in the ceiling/wall corners. Also, perfboards will replace sliding closet doors with more bass trapping in the closet, and blackout curtains over them to adjust high freq. reflections. The room is 11x13 plus larger closet with safe and sound in the back wall, as well as water proof board, along with a heavy walled custom shower. It was all installed this last winter in the bath. I plan to do the room without the Prodex, test, and then determine if I need to use it or not. I'm building rolling gobo's for the large room, and will try them in front of the 3 windows, before adding the cost of extending the window frames and drywall as well. On a raw room, I would try it in a heartbeat.

I have used a lesser quality, lower value, but higher priced, single bubble, product in an R.V., flat to the wall, and was amazed by it's heat and sound performance. This was in 110 degree heat, and on the main road of a large, Texas campground. Walls, ceiling and windows. They offer free samples. Not associated with them in any way.
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norton
buyin' a studio


Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 839
Location: minneapolis

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Roxul board insulation.... Are these foam based board insulation?

I love styrofoam board insulation for thermal/vapor insulation.....but they don't have any positive effect on sound. They are fairly transparent to sound.

Some of the spry foams are ok for sound.....not great, but ok. Mostly because they create a perfectly sealed envelope.

I wouldn't want to rely on anything but Fiberglas/cotton/mineral wool in a sound isolation assembly.

Small room acoustics and 'sound proof ' construction are two different things. And the difficulties in small rooms require a heavy mix of low low low end management. Pressure based damped membrane traps are very effective.
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mrc
re-cappin' neve


Joined: 23 Nov 2003
Posts: 617
Location: Dead Center, Bible Belt, USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: concrete block walls Reply with quote

Roxul is a mineral wool product that doesn't shed.You can find it at ATS. The 8lb boards are just a hair better than 705, and hardened Roxul, two inches thick. The Safe and Sound is 3 inches thick and flexible, equivalent to 703. You can find it at box store chains. The Prodex is sealed with tape. It's a sound barrier. My closet is a modified deep bass trap and the super traps plus diagonal rock boards in the ceiling corners are mid and high bass traps. I have plans for a deep bass trap and this closet is guided by them, not copied from, but it's also a large area. I'm also using the 8lb boards fo clouds.
I've tried commercial foam, and it's just about worthless. Blackout curtains and blankets are about as good.
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