Recording solo trombone

[Eiko]

Hi folks! So I'm going to record a solo trombone for some sort of instrumental CD, and we were discussing the best way to mic the trombone.
The usual way would certainly be to place a good, neutral mic in front of the trombone, something like a 414 or RE20, nothing too bright.

However, since experimenting is part of the fun, we wondered if M/S would make much sense, in order to get a wider representation of the trombone.

The space in which we'll be recording is a rather neutral, dead sounding room, as in not much room sound to be captured. My thinking was, that M/S wouldn't make much sense, since a trombone is a very narrow sound source, so there's not much wideness to be captured in the first place.

So I figured M/S makes sense either with a nice sounding environment (where natural ambience can be captured), or with a wide sound source like a piano, a drum kit, or even an acoustic guitar.

Is my thinking correct? Is it pointless to use M/S if the sound source is very narrow in the first place, and there's no ambience worth capturing?
This is not just about trombones. It's more about when to rule out M/S, if in a given situation it doesn't make much sense.
Well, I suppose that goes for all stereo techniques then...

Looking forward to your thoughts

[Snarl 12/8]

My dad's cousin is a world class jazz trombonist. He told me a while back that he vastly prefers ribbon mics (I'm sure he uses high-end ones) on his horn. I know this doesn't address the M/S thing (which I know nothing about) but I thought I'd throw this out there.

[Eiko]

My dad's cousin is a world class jazz trombonist. He told me a while back that he vastly prefers ribbon mics (I'm sure he uses high-end ones) on his horn. I know this doesn't address the M/S thing (which I know nothing about) but I thought I'd throw this out there.

Yes, ribbons can be great on horns...

[A.David.MacKinnon]

My dad's cousin is a world class jazz trombonist. He told me a while back that he vastly prefers ribbon mics (I'm sure he uses high-end ones) on his horn. I know this doesn't address the M/S thing (which I know nothing about) but I thought I'd throw this out there.

Yes, ribbons can be great on horns...

You can't go wrong with a ribbon 4-10' out front of the player. I have an old RCA that I love for brass but I've used all kinds of ribbons (even the cheap Apex/Nandy/what-ever ones) and had good results.

[drumsound]

I have a pair of Tape Op group buy ribbons and I bought a pair of sE X1R to recordin a band of 5 trombones (I also borrowed a 121). Ribbon mics+brass instruments=great tracks (if they can play).

[Scodiddly]

My usual favorite mic on trombones is the classic old CAD E100 - I've got five of them, for big band shows with four trombones and one kick drum.

But now I'm kind of intrigued about what sort of space I'd want to record a solo trombone in. Are you stuck with the space you mentioned? I don't think I'd want some huge echo-laden hall, but something that would respond to the instrument might be nice. And the bone can be a plenty loud instrument, meaning maybe a cool space with a little of noise floor might be OK.

[Eiko]

My usual favorite mic on trombones is the classic old CAD E100 - I've got five of them, for big band shows with four trombones and one kick drum.

But now I'm kind of intrigued about what sort of space I'd want to record a solo trombone in. Are you stuck with the space you mentioned? I don't think I'd want some huge echo-laden hall, but something that would respond to the instrument might be nice. And the bone can be a plenty loud instrument, meaning maybe a cool space with a little of noise floor might be OK.

Ribbons can no doubt a nice choice for trombone. The question however was, if you' use M/S if the sound source is as narrow as a trombone.

[Snarl 12/8]

Is that a Royer on the trombone? I don't know what they're using on the slide trumpet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfH3mXjz8NU

And it looks like he's blowing past it, rather than into it.

If it was me for solo bone, I'd try to get a ribbon close and then try a stereo technique on the room.

[A.David.MacKinnon]

My usual favorite mic on trombones is the classic old CAD E100 - I've got five of them, for big band shows with four trombones and one kick drum.

But now I'm kind of intrigued about what sort of space I'd want to record a solo trombone in. Are you stuck with the space you mentioned? I don't think I'd want some huge echo-laden hall, but something that would respond to the instrument might be nice. And the bone can be a plenty loud instrument, meaning maybe a cool space with a little of noise floor might be OK.

Ribbons can no doubt a nice choice for trombone. The question however was, if you' use M/S if the sound source is as narrow as a trombone.

Depends on the room I guess. It's likely easier to try it than talk and type about it. If it doesn't add enough you can always ditch the side mic and be back to mono.

[joninc]

A ribbon is the best of both worlds in that it's most often a figure 8 which means you'll get some ambience as well as the rich mellow tones.

(Unless it's a m160 is something but I suspect more often it's royers, Coles or cheaper apex/nady or cascade mics)

I don't know if I'd opt for m/s in a solo performance. I think of it more as a tool to give control over how much ambience to use in a track with other elements, where you're maybe not sure how big it can be. But, ymmv. If probably opt for something closer and stereo rooms.

[oneflightup]

Hi,

I don't know whether I'd bother with M/S.

I recorded a trumpet and flugel horn player today, actually. Vintage MD421 about a foot away, and an RCA 77DX a few feet away and up a bit.

The result: 2 really good, but different sounds/tones to blend (and pan if needed) to my heart's content. Certainly a big sound.

The 2 mics were tracked through an LA3A on the 421 and LA2A on the RCA77. API pre's.

Cheers,

Nick

[cgarges]

I've recorded a lot of trombones (including long-time James Brown band leader, Fred Wesley) and I've had consistently good luck with either a Coles 4038 or a Neumann FET 47-type mic like a Lawson L47FET, an actual FET 47, or in a pinch, an AT4047. I've also used mics like a U87, RE20, 414 (visor versions), Beyer TGX50, etc. Basically, anything that sounds good on a kick drum (maybe with a bit more sensitivity, detail, and ability to handle difficult dynamics) would be a good starting place.

The Coles mic will give you a nice, throaty low end with a nice, chesty "thump," but with a bit of a smoother midrange. I find that inexpensive ribbon mics, or ribbon mics that give a lot of definition to, say, an electric guitar amp (I'm looking at you, Royer R121), tend to be a little "peaky" in the midrange in most instances for my tastes. Of course, it all depends on the player, the musical range, the horn, the room, etc., but that's where my general preferences lean.

M/S seems like a bit much in a crappy room sometimes, but I might have a suggestion for a sort of "faux M/S" that I use a lot for solo performance recordings, especially in rooms that don't have a terribly exciting, long decay. In these instances for solo performers, I've had really good luck having a good-sounding, solid, close miking array that I use in the center and then augmenting that with a pair of clean, high-output ambient mics (preferably something with exceptional distance sensitivity-- Oktava MC012s work EXTREMELY well in this regard, even with something "sexier" like Neumann or Schoeps small diaphragm condensers around) at a greatest distance to capture the room sound. The next trick is to record the ambient mics in a phase-coherent coincident pair, like X-Y, but then flip the polarity of one those mics (relative to each other), so that you're actually recording the stereo image out of phase. This gives you a totally mono-compatible close mic sound with really fantastic width and depth in the ambient filed (albeit, one that cancels in mono). Not great for a picture that requires complete mono-compatibility as a whole (like, a vinyl release, for example), but a really great stereo recording with a lot of depth. I've had good luck with this technique for over a decade and it's something I rely on quite frequently.

Hope this helps.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Recycled_Brains]

I love a good "chesty thump".

[JWL]

Yes, I think overall your thinking makes sense (to the OP here). I'd totally use a ribbon mic for a trombone.

If it was a great room and I wanted to capture that, I might use M/S. But I'd be more likely to just use a mono close mic, and maybe a 2nd room mic further away. I've been into that lately.

If it's like a solo trombone performance then maybe a stereo recording makes sense to maximize the space, but in a good, controlled, even dead room I wouldn't bother.