Is there a glut?

optionshift3
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Is there a glut?

Post by optionshift3 » Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:01 pm

I periodically search throughout the world to see what kind of engineering positions are available, and it seems that pretty much every continent has an amazing amount of talented people for an average of one job posting every month or so. Am I just hitting the depressing spots? Is it actually this bad? Are places like Full Sail, IPR, Music Tech, SAE and the like churning out far more legitimate engineers than the market can bear?
It seems to have gotten a lot worse over the last three years... dunno why...
England seems particularly bad. Judging by the posts, anyway. There don't seem to be any available positions at all for anyone of any skill and/or experience level. I know there are a lot of Brits on this forum... am I totally wrong or is this true?
None of my interns in the last three years have been able to find anything real or permanent anywhere except feeder positions in New York or LA. Due to the number of students pushed out by the two music schools just in Minnesota, none of the engineers or studio owners that I know will have any positions in the forseeable future, and are getting kind of sick of the amount of applications they get every week.
Seems really bad. Is it? Anyone?

cornsound
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by cornsound » Mon Mar 08, 2004 9:40 am

yes.

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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by mfedderman » Tue Mar 09, 2004 11:15 am

Yeah, it is that bad! After interning at a ton of different studios and never being offered a REAL job, I decided to become a freelance engineer. I called around to a bunch of different studios all throughout the Chicagoland area (who seem to ALL be hurting for business) and made a deal! If I brought bands I found to their studio to record, the studio would give me a deal on the time, so, I could then charge my own fee on top and have it still make sense for the band's I was working with.
After that, I put together a demo reel of past work, and started talking to bands. The biggest selling point was that I could get studios CHEAPER than they could, because of the deals I had made. After doing that for a bunch of years, and doing a TON of networking, I found out that a studio was moving and there their space was going to be left as is! I moved in and now at age 27, I OWN my own studio with a steady stream of happy clients that I have previously worked with and with whom they'd like to work with again!
Basically, IMHO, the "audio engineering field", is going back to the way it was in the beginning. There weren't schools! The cream would rise to the top. People would learn anyway they could. The meek would give up, but, the true talent, who knew how to network, would succeed. Now, there are SOO many schools turning out "engineers", that they only way truely talented engineers are going to succeed is to find a way to make it on their own at any cost. Ya know? Don't let the fact that there aren't postings on monster.com discourage you!

ok, I'll get off my soapbox!

-Matt Feddermann
Phase Recording Studios
www.phaserecordingstudios.com
"The things that come to those who wait, may be the things left over by those who got there first!"

brew
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by brew » Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:21 pm

it seems that pretty much every continent has an amazing amount of talented people for an average of one job posting every month or so.
is there a glut?

probably not.

why don't you see more job postings?

because high profile, hell, most studios do not post openings!

you're not looking in the right places. you will rarely if ever find worthwhile studio or audio jobs on monster.com or even, from extensive empirical knowledge, on "entertainment industry" job boards either.

if you want a job in this industry, you really have to WANT it. you can't expect it to show up in your inbox because you subscribe to the CareerBuilder eBulletin. You have to go straight to the source and contact the studios/people directly.

great studio jobs have always been hard to come by, but if you make the right moves you'll have them in your grasp.[/i]

EoiNius
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by EoiNius » Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:25 am

The same problem exists over here in Ireland.There are too many "Sound Engineering" courses on offer and each year theres a ridiculous influx of graduates entering the job market.Under 10% of these gradautes actually manage to get a full time paid job,as for the other 90%...well Burger King has always been kind to the sound engineering industry!
How I got into the industry and I think how most engineers have cracked the shell is basically down to a lot of hard graft,with a lot of networking and
a lot of personality.
This glut,can be a good thing though with the best of the bunch succeeding in weeding out the jobs,and continuing to uphold a high industry standard while the rest...Whopper with Cheese please!

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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by xonlocust » Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:21 pm

well-
i think the profession is becoming much less of a vocational/trade school kind of thing and more of a liberal arts thing. think of the amount of kids who graduate with a BFA and go on to work as secretaries or work in retail or at a bar or something, many are extremely talented, but galleries aren't knocking on thier doors right away.

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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by Pro Jules » Fri Mar 26, 2004 4:15 am

Er....

A view from the murky bottom of this side of the pond... (UK)

record CO's have slashed budgets in the UK

There USED to be a LOT of studios getting work in the 80's from:

Record co demos - 3 days for a band they were interested in

managers paying for - 3 day demo sessions

This funded breaks for a lot of small / mid sized studios & junior staff engineers (getting ripped of with) on $75-100 per day for engineering.

There were $300 - $400 per day oportunities for freelance engineers too.

Now - there is no money from record co's for this. And because of a decline in bands being signed, all LOT of the manager types that USED to fund recordings - have all slunk back into the shaddows, probably getting regular jobs, feeding thier families etc....

On the other hand musicians in the UK now all have jobs - which IS a change, cause they all used to be 'on the dole' (social security) - It's oficial! - its more fun to have money in your pocket and a job, than sit around and watch childrens TV all day!

This means (here in the UK at least) that musicians are funding FAR MORE recordings than they used to.

Demo money & Development deals are creeping back - but the studio scene is still very bleak.

Bubble bubble (sinks back to the bottom and lurks under the mud)
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4amStudios
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by 4amStudios » Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:07 am

As a 2003 Full Sail grad , I agree with alot of the replies . It's rediculous how many schools are churning out "engineers" If I knew now , oh you know the rest . I've decided to continue in the retail world , finance my studio and build a nice niche demo studio .Interning is pointless for a school grad in my opinion , I mean I didn't pay $65K to dump trash and record crappy rap records . What I mean by this is that I know the basics , the rest will be learned from experience , why waste time getting it slowly(and maybe being treated like crap in the process) when you can just learn theory from various books, mags forums, courses online , and apply that in a real world setting on your terms and confidence, in your own studio. I'm happy where I am at now . I own some good gear and plan to add some Mytek AD/DA's and some nice mics and do some recording of quality music . I produce minimal techno , if I don't want to record a certain band , no sweat off my back , it's my gear . I use it so it's not just sitting there losing money . I have a good personality , and network well . I just ask that if you wanna record , be serious about your music . I mean how am I suppose to take you serious if you don't even take yourself serious ? I think with the advent of technology and prices lowering everyday and the wealth of knowledge on the net , you can learn and do so much . I mean you may have to work outside the industry for a bit , but then you can invest in some gear and do it on your terms and time . And not take crap from some gear queer audiophile mutant that runs rampant in the music industry . Best wishes bud , you'll make it if your hearts in it . Never let fear control you , you control fear !

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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by Pro Jules » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:23 am

I've been sifting through applications for the job advertised (here on Tape Op BTW)

I clearly asked for "a short note detailing your interest in rock music' and HARDLY ANY have bothered.

I just get

"Here is my CV attached"

The common industry perception that a large amount of kids leaving these schools are pretty clueless is sadly - right on the money.

We had a kid on trial a few weeks back but on his third and last "trial period" day (a mix session) he asked the engineer working, if he was 'needed any more'. Apparently his girlfriend was cooking something 'nice' that evening. Astonished and embarrassed the engineer let him go....

He's been the 3rd kid we have tried out.....,

1st clearly resented any of the cleaning tidying up tasks...
2nd was unobservant and didn't seem to 'connect' with our clients
3rd - see above, too bored watching a session

Now I have to trawl through the decent applications to find another one...

Still, most of my last 'engineer finds' have been 3rd time lucky deals...

The house engineer has been here 2 + years and his predecessor was here for 2 years before him and is a frequent client as a freelancer. Both have input on who gets the job. They both started as frecording school graduates.

The vacancy is still open BTW

here

http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopic.php?t=11289
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dokushoka
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by dokushoka » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:18 am

4amStudios wrote:As a 2003 Full Sail grad , I agree with alot of the replies . It's rediculous how many schools are churning out "engineers" If I knew now , oh you know the rest . I've decided to continue in the retail world , finance my studio and build a nice niche demo studio .Interning is pointless for a school grad in my opinion , I mean I didn't pay $65K to dump trash and record crappy rap records . What I mean by this is that I know the basics , the rest will be learned from experience , why waste time getting it slowly(and maybe being treated like crap in the process) when you can just learn theory from various books, mags forums, courses online , and apply that in a real world setting on your terms and confidence, in your own studio. I'm happy where I am at now . I own some good gear and plan to add some Mytek AD/DA's and some nice mics and do some recording of quality music . I produce minimal techno , if I don't want to record a certain band , no sweat off my back , it's my gear . I use it so it's not just sitting there losing money . I have a good personality , and network well . I just ask that if you wanna record , be serious about your music . I mean how am I suppose to take you serious if you don't even take yourself serious ? I think with the advent of technology and prices lowering everyday and the wealth of knowledge on the net , you can learn and do so much . I mean you may have to work outside the industry for a bit , but then you can invest in some gear and do it on your terms and time . And not take crap from some gear queer audiophile mutant that runs rampant in the music industry . Best wishes bud , you'll make it if your hearts in it . Never let fear control you , you control fear !

I hate to break it to you dude, but I own my own studio now, and I have to record "crappy rappers" too. It hurts my soul. I also have to record crappy mid-life crisis dudes too. It comes with the territory. As far as audio school, I studed at SF State which had pretty basic gear (lots of vintage stuff) It was great, cause shit always broke, and it was more about making it work with what we had working, rather than dicking around on an SSL all day. The engineers there are great old veterans, and what I learned from them was how to run a session, more so then how to mix. Now, as a studio owner, I totally appreciate that experience. Honestly, I feel like I've out grown them as far as mixing and what not, but I am still an amateur when it comes to running things smoothly. This shit is harder than you think.

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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by 4amStudios » Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:50 am

Maybe I didn't convey my agenda in my last post , and please excuse that . I produce my own music , so it's no skin off my back to not have some clientele I may not "connect" with . So my gear will still be making me money regardless . I have a fulltile job and will be going back for my B.S in Marketing and hope to gain employement in the euipment sales/developement side of things . They would be better served by using one of the other facilities in the area . Now I don't expect to have all "dream" sessions , I know I may be a little green , but not nieve . I just expect the clientele to be professional , have their crap together and their soul in it , not rapping about dubs , b@tches , babies mama's . Besides the point , I have a label connected with my studio , so I'm after eclectic artist and have strived to make that known upfront . I'm not an elitist , just a person who really loves the art of music ,not the dreams of wannabe Puff Daddy's . Way too many chiefs and not enough indians . Thanks for the input and insight . I respect it .

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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by Toddf » Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:29 pm

Yes there is a glut of graduates who have attitudes like those Jules has encountered. They think its going to be easy and don't want it bad enough. You have to live for the job or it isn't going to happen. Its a tough road but if you have the talent and the attitude you can find work. But overall the answer in my opinion is yes. Todd F.
Todd Fitzgerald
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Winterland Studios
Minneapolis, MN
www.winterlandstudios.com

optionshift3
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by optionshift3 » Sun Apr 18, 2004 10:30 am

Interestingly enough, Todd, I interned for you. And Jules, I once replied to one of your requests for an intern/assistant. Being a commonwealther (half Aussie, half American citenzenship), i was going to come across the pond. You replied that you were looking specifically and only for people who actually lived in the UK, which I can respect. in light of many of the recording job boards, I am really glad that you are offering anything to anyone at all.

Are you still at Oarfin Todd? I thought IPR bought you guys... ironically enough. A school buying a studio that a lot of people got their first internship experience at. Now only students get in. I guess there is a major ton of cash to be made within the Recording School industry.

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Monkeyfist
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by Monkeyfist » Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:42 pm

As a AIS Drop out, and a Pro-Line A/V Veteran. I can tell you this, there are far more musically challenged folk out there with money, and not taking them on to record is only going to hurt you in the end, money is money no matter if the guy is Thelonious Monk, or if he is Joe Schmoe from around the way. The trick is learning this, some of the guys that aren't great at playing but want to put the money and time in to record are going to have the cash to pay the rent. Where as there are a lot of broke talented guys looking to get a free session banking on thier talent. Saying "If your not serious don't bother" is ridiculous. Your not putting together concerto for Pavarotti I'm sure. And there is something to be said about making bad crap sound good. It takes some work trust me. I ran sound for the Vietnamese Music Awards in Tacoma, and let us just say that I have never had to eq so much high end in my life. But my boss and I brought it down smooth and the crowd was none the wiser, but thank god for sound check. I diodn't have a choice in doing that job, it was feast or famine. And I wasn't going to fry up some DAT for dinner...
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Re: Is there a glut?

Post by zachg » Mon Apr 26, 2004 4:45 pm

i'll have to agree with monkeyfist on the 'get it any way you can' mentality. as i see it, there are a lot of kids signing up for recording classes because they think its cool and music kicks ass. 2 out of 3 clients i work with are under 25 and 3 quarters of them ask me how i got into it and how it must be cool to get paid listening to music all day. and its scary because they're the ones that call you a month later and ask you to hook up the $8000 worth of recording gear they just bought at guitar center. the bottom line is that theres a mental lapse between seeing the work people do in the artistic/entertainment industry and understanding the time and effort put in to get that work accomplished. recording tech schools merely exploit this lapse and counts their money after you leave. the same thing is happening with web design, digital video, and IT jobs. at least people who run off to hollywood can expect to take temporary crap jobs as standins or extras just to work "in the industry". it amazes me how this mentality is lost on audio engineers who won't record hiphop.

there are only two ways to get paid as an audio engineer:
either you hustle for every gig
or you go teach at fullsail.

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