Apple Computers

[DUC]

Apple's new G5 starts at $2K, while a new Dell starts at $600.

Whole Foods organic products are way expensive. Out of reach of the average family.

How are these liberal companies?

Hey, I'm no liberal, but does this make any sense? And I can buy a new Honda for less than a Volkswagon and it'll last longer with less expensive maintenance.

Liberal is the new status symbol. In the 80's people were just unapologetically rich and you could hate them for it. Now, people know how to show guilt while still being rich.

It's a marketing ploy.

[penelec]

Duc:

I was thinking about this the other day in re: Starbucks. I had some kinda conception that it was a liberal thing (Joni Mitchell CDs for sale, New York Times readily available), then I was realizing that it was prob'ly the most bourgeois place on Earth.

I think it's the way the word gets fucked up. I'm extremely liberal on moral issues, so I see myself as a liberal (anti-death penalty, pro-choice, voted Green [but i live in New York! NEW YORK! It was safe!]) but I'm one of the most conservative guys on the planet. Computer? Public liberry! Volkswagon? Transit authority! Starbucks? Um... well, yeah, Starbucks. Jerks put cocaine in their coffee or something, can't get over it.

There are liberals who are extremely conservative on oral issues, but who are so liberal fiscally that they will fund poorly conceived but well-marketed companies. And there are lots of liberals in-between. But you're right; VW and Apple have branded themselves to the liberal side of the fence, hoping to cop some cash. Ian Macaye weighed in on this when he so eloquently yelped "I am not what I own."

[penelec]

I meant "moral issues." It's the Clinton liberal Democrat in me.

[trashy]

I'm confused as to how Apple computers is a liberal company. Even if they were, can't a liberal company set its own prices? Isn't that what the free market is all about? Apple builds a WAY better computer than Dell does, and I'm not talking just the OS. I use an Apple at home and a Dell (and another Apple) at work. The Dell functions like it's made of plastic. And not that good kind of Japanese Space-Age Plastic that's used in cool robot body armor, either. It's like it came out of a happy meal. The hardware Apple produces is of a much higher quality than what they shove in those Dells. It's like you're comparing apples and oranges, but only it's really much more like you're comparing Apples and Dells.
On the other hand, I competely agree about the Honda/VW thing. Honda makes a great vehicle, and prices much better than VW. People buy the VW to look cool. I guess that's okay- it's their money.
Then again, being a true dirt-poor liberal, I know that even Hondas are out of the reach of most families. I can't even afford a used Honda. I own a used Hyundai. Talk about happy meal.
I think you're a closet liberal. Come on out, the weather is fine! You talk about all this stuff people own, and then claim that being liberal is the new status symbol. As always, it's the stuff people own that is the status symbol.
We need people like you in our camp, Duc. Welcome home.

[DUC]

Everyone, esp. eeldip, knows I'm apolitical. I hate both and all parties, but come on, if you are liberal, then act like one. And if you are conservative, do the same. I hate the games these people play. It's anoying. It's marketing at its worst.

If I was a character in Dungeon's & Dragons I would be chaotic good. I hate all social orders, but I find myself compelled to help people. That's pretty fucked up.

I own a used Honda Accord. I bought it for $5,000. I've never had any problems with it, and I am pretty sure, if I try hard enough, I could get chicks to dig it.

I was talking to a friend of mine about how the world is set up to protect the elite. That's how cynical I am. Now, I've abandoned the liberal drink Jamba Juice for a more intoxicating margarita. And I'm thinking of buying into knock-off brand G4s. They might not have an Apple logo, but fuck them.

Anyway, it's good to rant. Argh!

[mrhawkinson]

If you're talking about companies that market themselves as being kind to poor people and bunnies, I think the term you are reaching for is 'progressive' rather than 'liberal'.

The overpriced Apple that compares to the $600 Dell would be the $800 eMac... a significant difference but not $1400 different. Apple uses several different arguments to justify the higher price and the touchy-feeliness of the MacOS is just one of them... they also pimp the fancier design of the box (snob appeal) and the gee-whiz features of the hardware (the BMW effect).

As a company Apple has never been regarded as particularly progressive. They were singled out for questionable executive compensation and corporate governance practices last year. They'll never get to be the 'evil empire' that Microsoft is but I don't think they'd pass up the chance if it presented itself.

Food Hole is a better example of a company that makes a personal investment in specialness and can't figure out why people resent it when they start acting like corporate greedheads. Same for Ben and Jerry's.

As far as cars, computers and recording equipment go, the rational choice is to buy the highest quality gear you can afford that has the features you need. ('Chicks dig it' is not a necessary feature, Duc -- for shame! ) Depeche Mode teaches us that Different People Have Different Needs and I happen to need to use a Mac which means I will be limping along in my '98 G3 for another year before I buy a G5.

-p

[cornsound]

as long as we're talking about cars, I bought a VW because it has a highly economical Diesel engine, not to look cool. I still think it looks cool anyway.

so is VW a liberal company? I'd say yeah, I think they've always been for the most part (except their very early history ) and it's been one of their trademarks more or less. lately they have been making more up-scale cars, so I don't know what to think anymore.

really, any company will pander to any market they can if they think they can sell something to you, be it liberal, conservative, red, green, black, yella, white, fat, ugly, stupid, smart, horny, over-the-hill, etc. -- they spend lots on research just to get us to buy their stuff.

funny thing, I had to do some research on my VW on my own because they didn't do any marketing on the Diesel VW at all (about 2 years ago).

[Randy]

Some random thoughts:

Johnny Rotten once said that the difference between punk and new wave was that punkers who wanted to do coke would put on a skinny tie and call themselves new wave.

Along those lines, I think a liberal is someone who wants all the trappings of a materialist existence but wants to believe that it is not hurting anyone.

I don't really think the whole conservative/liberal thing means much at all. In the grand sum, it's a matter of how you live your life. If you let the products you buy define you as a person, you have become a commodity that advertising agencies sell to large corporations. This is not neccessarily a bad thing, until your life starts being guided and controlled by these companies.

From what I have seen, it seems that conservatives want companies to decide how we should live our lives, and liberals want government to decide how we should live our lives. I don't like either option, but if forced to choose (which we literally are) I would choose the government, at least we have a small chance of controlling how that works. Albeit a diminishing chance day by day as the corporations have been taking over.


whatever.
Randy

[ottokbre]

I bought a Mac 'cus I was an Industrial Designer at one point and Apple are the epitomy of ID.

I bought a VW 'cus fit people over 6'.

Amen

[trodden]

I bought a mac because i learned Pro tools on a mac and it was a pretty blue color.

I also like the mac because i'm on a damn pc at work all day, its nice to go to the studio and be on a different machine with a different way of working.

I also like the mac because its less prone to stupid viruses.

I also like the mac because i feel that its a better built machine.

I don't like starbucks cause the coffee tastes like shit

I don't like starbucks cause its a huge corporation that drives out smaller coffee shops that usually sell better coffee and better attitude

I don't like starbucks because I live in Seattle and there is one every 20 feet.

[mrhawkinson]

I don't like starbucks because I live in Seattle and there is one every 20 feet.

Unbelievably, we spent 10 minutes driving around downtown Seattle looking for a Starbucks when I was there in May (the neighborhood around Zak's). I'm sure we were just zigging when we should have zagged, but still.

We eventually found one in a gas station.

-p

[trodden]

yes the neihborhood around Zak's is odd.. if you would have zagged a little further south you would of found one. Unfortunately Zak's fifth ave saloon is closing down...

[DUC]

I see your point, Randy, and I also think that any company would market themselves as liberal just to get that demographic to buy their product. Hard core liberals are pretty blokey when it comes to marketing. Conservatives don't deny themselves their own greed. They don't make any bones about it.

I used to work at a very upscale, elitist, design firm. Everyone seemed to want to be liberal and have their Escalades at the same time. I'm not knocking free choice to buy what you want, but I'm questioning the hypocrisy.

Yes, you can justify it all you want, but then you have to be honest with yourself. Well, you don't have to.

I'm not ashamed to say that chicks could dig my Honda. They are just as shallow as the rest of us. I'm not going to be putting them on a pedestal.

[eeldip]

in some senses i have to get behind duc here. (although i dont see how it relates to apple computers and VWs....)

in SF where i live there are so many people who call themselves "liberal" or consider themselves part of the "left" and they are so happy that they live in SF because it is the only "enlightened city" in the country. but then secretly they are just rich conservative/centrists who are OK with gay people.

they vote for rich assholes, they refuse to fund any sort of services for anyone but wealthy people. we have a terrible homeless problem, and they fell for a "care not cash" voter measure, which was a way to not pay homeless people a dime for work that they would be forced to do!

and just look at who they elect... davis, feinstein, pelosi. all people who call themselves liberals cause they are pro-choice, pro-gay rights. but then if you look any deeper than that... it all breaks down. they all have very tight ties to organizations that leftists should be upset about. and so on. davis on the death penalty! he might as well be from texas. he cut our school budget and expanded our death row! thanks!

[DUC]

The establishment found a new way to make sure of their existence. They embraced liberalism to extend their power.

Conservative and liberal are just means to control people.