Apple Computers

[trashy]

I don't know. I sort of hear what eeldip is saying. It's like people will vote in November, but not realize that they are voting every day with their dollar. It's important that people (left or right) realize that in a free market it's essential that they choose companies who use those dollars correctly. It's great if you're a Democrat, but if you buy gas from a company (chevron, say) that just funnels your money to the Republicans, then you've shot yourself in the foot.
On the other hand, sometimes you just gotta be like, "Chevron is a block from my house, and I'm gonna buy my gas there." I still think that is voting with your dollar. You're saying that the convenience that Chevron gives you is worth more than the inconvenience of having a Republican in office. That's a perfectly fine economic decision to make. The problem is that most people don't make decisions like this. Ah well.
Respectfully, I still don't see how being liberal or conservative is a way for someone (or something) to control me. I know I'm going against the grain of most of my generation, but I like belonging to a political party. They don't tell me what to think, I tell them what to think. And my party screws up, but it does good, too. I think it does more good than the other parties. Hell, if I only belonged to groups with which I agreed with every decision they've ever made I wouldn't be a liberal, I wouldn't be a Christian, I wouldn't be a musician, and I wouldn't want to be a human. I'm all of these things, despite the fact that these bands of people have done a lot of really stupid and evil stuff. I just can't wait it out until the world fixes itself and then decide I'm gonna join. I don't have that gene in me.
Sorry about the monologue. I majored in PoliSci and Economics; I'm a geek. I'm sure you guessed.
Yours,
Phil

[eeldip]

exactly duc. of course, this is no great revelation.


you are right in that it is interesting is that some companies use the same techniques for marketing purposes...


but the world of marketing and advertising and politics merged long ago...

[ottokbre]

i think now more than ever people are realizing it's hardly even a two party system at that.

We've been had!!!

I can vaugely understand the VW and Apple thing, like it's some sort of unthought defualt like voting for Democrats 'cus they "appear" less evil.
hmmm....so much for critical thinking.

[cassembler]

Ok, I've read this entire thread and have come up with thoughts to share. Trod, buddy, you made some comments that prove my points.

I also like the mac because i feel that its a better built machine.

I don't like starbucks cause its a huge corporation that drives out smaller coffee shops that usually sell better coffee and better attitude

Ahh, the fruits of the free-enterprise economy. Macs still exist at double the price because people like them. Starbucks drive out indie coffee shops. Having worked for Starbucks for two years, let me ask you this:
How many indie coffee shops give ALL of their employees health care options? Stock options? Starting pay above minimum wage?

Of course, Sbucks is merely one example of many large companies that have done something right to gain the amount of market share that they have. Windows, for example, said "Hey, let's do some standardization in addition to improving an inteface." Bam, Windows 3.1 was way popular.

Guitar Center is the same thing: they started out as a one-shop deal (originally named Organ Center). The reason they were so successful is because they generally had better prices, and they still do. Why would I buy Zed's Tube Sat-urinator at Bob's Hardware for $1k when I can buy the same piece of gear at GC for $750? Why?

Big companies are big because they're doing something right. A small coffee shop would have leverage over Sbucks if they did it better.

Ahh, but all is not well in free-enterprise land. Monopolies and ogilopolies can wreak havok on the natural flow of things. Major labels anyone? What would it be like if McDonnald's was the only fast food company? They'd raise prices and the food would (speculatively) taste even worse.

And on the subject of food zone topics, I eat at Chipotle because Taco Bell tastes like ass. No ifs, ands, or buts, it is slightly better than dog vomit (to me). So I pay an extra $4 PER MEAL because good food is worth it.

Thanks for listening to me spew forth these thoughts,
Nick

EDIT: and that's not including the political angles...

[eeldip]

its a two party system.

but it is more like visa and mastercard... than right and wrong.

[eeldip]

one problem with big centralized companies is that they are bad for local economies.

a local coffee shop provides 1 nice middle class job (owner), and 1 or 2 maybe decent, maybe crappy working class jobs (depending on the owner).

a local starbucks provides generally more decent working class jobs, but take away the local middle class job.


it gets worse for communities when you look at something like a walmart that takes away scores of middle class and upper middle class jobs and replaces them with working class jobs and a single upper middle class job.


ultimately, all the money you save by shopping at big corporations is offset by a loss of aggregate income to a community.



however, of course there are certain things that only a big company can do. hard to imagine a bunch of small local VisaUSA's.

[cassembler]

Eeldip, I partially agree and partially disagree.

In D/FW, Starbucks has probably 75-100 shops [EDIT: probably closer to 50], and a regional headquarters. I did some work there for a couple of weeks (petty work, mind you), and there were a good 50 people working there in ties. A manager for a shop gets a salary starting at about 24k and works up from there. I left there making $12/ hour + tips as a shift manager. I could have worked to the local coffee shop for $6/hr plus tips. Hmmmm... nope.

Another example you had given was Target, which has more "middle class" jobs than ether of us would probably think on a per-store basis.

But let's say a big company opens up a Megastore in Po Dunk, Iowa. Let's say that Megastore hires 100 min. wage jobs and one mid-class job.

Now, the people that work the min. wage jobs have a choice. They can show up, do a half-assed job, and get paid on Friday. I suspect 75% of Americans do this. Or, they could get a better education or specialize in something (perhaps Audio Engineering?).

Everyone in Po Dunk shops at Megastore and spends their hard-earned money, and let's say that 25% of that goes back to Seattle. 50% of that goes to various companies across the globe (for stock) and 25% of that goes to employees. It would thus be easy to conclude that 75% of the town's cash goes away, and eventually, te town has no money and Megastore closes, dropping 101 jobs. But that doesn't happen, and I'm at a loss to explain exactly why (I slept through Econ).

But anyways, my point is that people have choices as to where they work. If they're happy with minimum wage jobs, then bring 'em on 'cause they actually turn the world.

[zoetrope]

How are these liberal companies?

I always thought they were just snobby; never made the "liberal" connection. That word has virtually no meaning anymore anyway.

All companies are out to make a profit. I don't think of capitalism as "liberal" and I definitely don't think of corporations that way. They are what they are, money machines. Each embraces a certain set of advertising and marketing ploys to achieve the objective of greater profits. To the extent that some of them sell something I want at a decent price, that's a good thing.

It's all about $$$$$$$$$$

[dwelle]

"It's great if you're a Democrat, but if you buy gas from a company (chevron, say) that just funnels your money to the Republicans, then you've shot yourself in the foot."


that is oversimplistic (to say the least) and borderline ignorant of how things really work.

nevermind the fact that chevron signs thousands of paychecks every week for democratic employees. nevermind the fact that chevron pays billions of dollars every year (granted they probably should pay more, another discussion altogether) to the federal gov't (regardless of which party is in power) so they can continue their thing, and pay for liberal politicians' programs as well as their paychecks!

that attitude is representitive of what our two party system has come down to, and that's no good for anyone. if i'm with x political party, why on earth would i not want someone (or something) from party y to make money and prosper. drawing a line in the sand and saying it's bad to support a company because all that money funnels down to republicans and not democrats is bullshit. it's not rooted in reality and sure as hell doesn't do anything to help promote a political system with real "options".

us against them. i don't think thats what folks had in mind a couple a hundred years ago when they thought this shit up.

by the way, i always vote with my wallet...

[cassembler]

The total amount of money in the world doesn't really change. If you want more, you have to go get it.

[eeldip]

It would thus be easy to conclude that 75% of the town's cash goes away, and eventually, te town has no money and Megastore closes, dropping 101 jobs. But that doesn't happen, and I'm at a loss to explain exactly why (I slept through Econ).

under my sketchy theory, what happens is not that everyone loses their jobs, but they just lose out on better paying jobs. and then you widen the space between the rich and the poor. which according to many, if not most economists, ultimately is bad for a national economy and eventually leads to a more broad economic failure. the store doesnt close because working class people and middle class people spend suprisingly similar amounts on consumer goods. (almost all of peoples income in the working classes goes to rent and consumer goods, whereas a portion of middle class income goes into personal wealth- real estate, investments, etc.)

walmarts, i believe, and someone fill in here (i got this from no great source).... have a lot of associate managers and then one big general manager. who becomes a sort of town head honcho (like the villian in the A-team). i think the general managers make 100K+ which is pretty amazing in some areas. but the associates make like 20K+.

[eeldip]

The total amount of money in the world doesn't really change. If you want more, you have to go get it.

true, but the distribution of money does change. and many who have a large share of it wont let go, and use the political system to hold onto it.

[trodden]

Starbucks drive out indie coffee shops. Having worked for Starbucks for two years, let me ask you this:
How many indie coffee shops give ALL of their employees health care options? Stock options? Starting pay above minimum wage?

Big companies are big because they're doing something right. A small coffee shop would have leverage over Sbucks if they did it better.

.

I can understand your points. But global domination is hard to accept for me, even with stock options and health care. I'd love to have health care, really, my fucking teeth hurt. But i think there should be other ways of attaining that health care without chaining myself to the corporate giant. Maybe if starbucks wasn't a monster out of control gobbling up little stores, those little stores would have a chance on paying their employees more, and offering health care. Funny, every job where i've had health care has been an independant business, whether it be a screen print shop or publishing company or restuarant. Every corporate shit hole i've worked for (starbucks main death star office here in seattle being one of them, i didn't last long) I've been temp and paid less and no health care. Our economy here in seattle makes it hard to get some jobs, making temp work the norm amongst my peers, temp work and working in smaller businesses where they get treated well with benefits.

plus their coffee is just shitty, i'd take a soy mocha from the lovely cafe vitta girls any day. coffee messiah is bad ass as well.

[trodden]

Hell, I even work for the state now, and have for almost a year, and still don't receive benefits. cause i'm a freakin temp. the state doesn't even have enough money to hire me on permanent. But instead I get awarded top 30 temp slave each quarter cause i work my ass off, and receive a $25.00 gift certificate to some corporate chain downtown, i usually get mine at barnes and nobels, buy more Mac and Protools books. screw the rotting teeth and the carpel tunnel, i get a book every quarter.

I can offer advice for those of you in washington state on collecting unemployment benefits..... i work for the appeals court... it'll cost you though hahaha

[cassembler]

Well, indie coffee shops would be able to pay their employees health care if they raised their prices... A decission to be made only by the business peeps. Market forces rule everything. Problem is that lots of people are manipulating those market forces.

As far as the comment about people with enough money to secure political safety, I again somewhat agree. They still have to buy my damn coffee, and I fully intend to sell it to them for the most $$$ I can get.