feeling a little confused?

[Maliscious]

So hear is a wide topic....
Where are we????
Does anyone else feel a little confused with where the music industry is going???
Why are folk's soo affriad to spend a little money???
Are the musicians of today not a worthy investment???
How are we different???
Maybe we can come up with some more notes to play, 12 notes may just not be enough anymore!!!!!!

[jzahos]

Maybe we can come up with some more notes to play, 12 notes may just not be enough anymore!!!!!!

I think Harry Partch proved that years ago! ...and much of the non-western world

JZ

[Maliscious]

Point well noted....Just trying to spark some Positive conversation.

[definitionofself]

I just did some work experience at a mastering studio and you wouldnt believe how terrified the manager was of changes in the industry. Freaked me out.

[(sb)]

yeah, it makes you wonder what they take chances on and why?

[Maliscious]

Through a few of my own encounters, even lawyers and personal managers are looking for airplay and some sort of substial sales before they will even talk to you....
Aren't they supposed to help the artist with all that???

[death_of_a_clown]

The industry is experiencing, in my opinion, a huge looting period. This is because for so long the purchasing public has been mistreated. Now, for some reason, and i still don't know why, but maybe is greedy blindness, they never foresaw the technology servicing the laymen. In this i mean, for years the industry knew how to calculate and continue to dangle the technological carrot in front of the people. Just look how subtle changes in mediums---from vinyl, to tape, to cd---controlled people. You'd buy a great sounding stereo system, and in ten years' time the thing would be obsolete.

All of this ringamarole drove the public to do what it's doing. I am a musican, but i love file-sharing networks like Acquisition.com and Kazaa and all those other evil little cohorts. I myself do not know how to come to terms with this great shift, and in many was the industry now resembles the wild west more than ever.

The artist, on the other hand, has not been so innocent either. S/he has developed too strong a relationship with the Iron Hand, and this S/he is suffering during this shift too.

It's already apparent. However, what's most apparent is that the D.I.Y. will be able to survive more so than the big bad label. Many professional studios are closing. With the advent of digital media it becomes easier and easier to cut-out the major studio and the major label.

For anyone who is truly interested in this topic i suggest picking up Jacques Attali's 'Noise: The Political Economy of Music'.

check out: www.attali.com

and check out: www.enemylove.com (my band)


Good luck to us all, and God save the audible arts!!!!

[quasimodo]

I was talking with an MBA friend of mine who was adamant that now is the time to get into the music industry because it's bottoming out. Seemed to me like the mouse that wanted to hang a bell on the cat - easy to talk about, but hard to do. Still it gave me a little hope, anybody wanna start an indie label?

[Brian]

Yeah, I'll start an indie label, I already own studio gear, just need a parking place in NY upstate, queens or Brooklyn, I ain't even hoping for MANHATTAN.
MBA friend, bottoming out period? MBA's think they know something about music? Sounds like he's talking about the stock market. NOT ART! You need to read ALL of this post.
Lemme tell you something about the true bottoming out of the industry. I was there and watched it all fall apart.
It happened in the 80's, back when recording funds started at $250k, and went up from there,dude.
1. Suddenly the nepotism that had been ramping up for about 5 years reached critical mass, the WHOLE A&R community SUCKED, some (most) just sucked, privates to get the job, others sucked because those around them who were related to the boss sucked. (no names but, CK are one's initials). Some tried to suck the artists privates (a lot!) and if they did the artist got a deal, (no names , but, MA are his initials)
OK, not much new there, but, then the
2. MBA's thought they knew somebody with talent, they ddidn't. When it became obvious that their picks weren't gonna cut it they appealed to the heads by the numbers, reducing the recording funds, over and over to justify their picks (which they tried the same crap the scumbags did only for less money involved).
3. Ask any promotion guy around back then and they'll tell you their jobs then became hell. try to sell some crappy thing you don't believe in and see how far you get! The artists were pushed to the wayside.
4. With budgets going from $250k and up to $12k, a lot of big studios went under. And by the way, the studio guys used to pick talent too, but, the accountants didn't want anyone in their way, so, they didn't listen.
5. In the mean time, real artists were getting the shaft while only Aerosmith, The Rolling Stones, Kiss, Phil Collins and Genisis, CSNY, Fleetwood Mac, Prince (and he had to fight for it, hard!), and a few others still got the royal treatment and rightfully so, they were some of the few true artists left on the rosters.
6. I remember that if you had a tour or record coming out and anyone of these had one coming out, you lose,. All the companies resources went to them. Your stuff never made it to the store in the town you were going through. All the talking to the promo guy couldn't change that, the bean counters had a grip on the fiances.
7. With the humdrum (no real songs), or should I say Ho Hum, acts that were out there record sales dropped, so, a new promo idea was born (no doubt in the accounting & nepotism dept) called " CHEAP online promo" worked for some backfired for many and especially the label sales dept.
8. Well there's where another "corporate strategy got some play, the blame game. Blame the online guys for the slump. Well they didn't put it on the net any more than the junky grows his own smack, successfully.
9. Like amany psychology student get into it to "heal themselves", I think many accounting and MBA's get into it to " figure a way to make money without spending any or offering any kind of service". There is no place for that kind of thinking in "Artist Developement". Sorry.
Too bad accountants and MBA's don't have to do an internship in a mom & pop store. It oughtta be necessary, especially in our business.
10. Alright, back to "our people". So it was also put on the producers to turn crap into gold. science has already proven that it can't be done "reliably and ongoingly' (I put that there to stem off the people who wouyld gloat that they pulled that one off, shame on them for taking pride in what amounts to be nothing more than a guilty pleasure,,and a check). When that didn't happen enough to "raise all boats", the blame must shift elswhere.
11. The master number. Well, the equipment manufacturers have accountants too! Greg Mackie's must be one happy boy! Soundcraft's must be too. Neve and SSL and Focusrite's have moved into the "part time" world. Just kidding.
So equipment is really cheap, made in China, but, not half bad, ,,,,in the right hands.
Now this is where I bring it AaaaaaLLL HOME, SO SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION!
With equipment soooo cheap artists are tempted to buy it, and ruin their possibilities getting bogged in tech, instead of recorded in studios with professionals for the same buck, only they get a finished product that serves them.
More than every other artist I run into either has a full blown prosumer studio which takes them forever to put out a product that is substandard from an engineer's or true artistic point of view, or, is telling me which big piece of gear they wanna get next and soliciting my opinion.
I tell them all the same thing:
The great producers started by putting whatever gear they had to get the job done together and making it work, well and moving up from there, that's producer/engineers, most not songwriter/artists.
An artist should have a simple piece of gear that is capable of eight tracks, a drum machine or whatever to keep time assuming they will or need to, a mic (I got a guy signed to a deal with capitol recs, a major, with ONE microphone, well selected and placed, of course) and an instrument or the like, because, IT IS THE SONG, NOT THE GEAR, OR THE STUDIO, OR THE PRICE, OR THE LOCATION, OR THE RELATIVE OR WHO YOU KNOW, OR THE LAWYER, OR THE ACCOUNTANT, OR THE MERCHANDISING, OR THE ALMIGHTY BLOWJOB that makes a hit and an artists career move on up like Weezy and George (sorry Lenny K.)
If we've lost sight of that, which we have, we don't deserve to perform one of our creator's sacred duties of music and song, yeah, that's the first thing we lost sight of that it comes from someplace we can't touch when done right, and that you can feel the hair standup on the back of your neck when in the presence of that kind of greatness and the goosebumps, oooooooh I miss them. When was the last time you got those from a recording with no blow-job or artist trying to pay for the session "in kind" involved?
Screw the rent, the utility co, my belly moanin, I ain't recording one more note unless the real criteria are met, I've been sitting it out for a long time too. Gear is a white albatross around an artists neck just like a label is. I liked it better when it was either" Indie" or not.

[Brian]

Oh, yeah, and I like the "Enemy Love" stuff, are you the older guys or the younger pics? heh heh.

[Brian]

Yeah, I'll start an indie label, I already own studio gear, just need a parking place in NY upstate, queens or Brooklyn, I ain't even hoping for MANHATTAN.
MBA friend, bottoming out period? MBA's think they know something about music? Sounds like he's talking about the stock market. NOT ART! You need to read ALL of this post.
Lemme tell you something about the true bottoming out of the industry. I was there and watched it all fall apart.
It happened in the 80's, back when recording funds started at $250k, and went up from there,dude.
1. Suddenly the nepotism that had been ramping up for about 5 years reached critical mass, the WHOLE A&R community SUCKED, some (most) just sucked, privates to get the job, others sucked because those around them who were related to the boss sucked. (no names but, CK are one's initials). Some tried to suck the artists privates (a lot!) and if they did the artist got a deal, (no names , but, MA are his initials)
OK, not much new there, but, then the
2. MBA's thought they knew somebody with talent, they ddidn't. When it became obvious that their picks weren't gonna cut it they appealed to the heads by the numbers, reducing the recording funds, over and over to justify their picks (which they tried the same crap the scumbags did only for less money involved).
3. Ask any promotion guy around back then and they'll tell you their jobs then became hell. try to sell some crappy thing you don't believe in and see how far you get! The artists were pushed to the wayside.
4. With budgets going from $250k and up to $12k, a lot of big studios went under. And by the way, the studio guys used to pick talent too, but, the accountants didn't want anyone in their way, so, they didn't listen.
5. In the mean time, real artists were getting the shaft while only Aerosmith, The Rolling Stones, Kiss, Phil Collins and Genisis, CSNY, Fleetwood Mac, Prince (and he had to fight for it, hard!), and a few others still got the royal treatment and rightfully so, they were some of the few true artists left on the rosters.
6. I remember that if you had a tour or record coming out and anyone of these had one coming out, you lose,. All the companies resources went to them. Your stuff never made it to the store in the town you were going through. All the talking to the promo guy couldn't change that, the bean counters had a grip on the fiances.
7. With the humdrum (no real songs), or should I say Ho Hum, acts that were out there record sales dropped, so, a new promo idea was born (no doubt in the accounting & nepotism dept) called " CHEAP online promo" worked for some backfired for many and especially the label sales dept.
8. Well there's where another "corporate strategy got some play, the blame game. Blame the online guys for the slump. Well they didn't put it on the net any more than the junky grows his own smack, successfully.
9. Like amany psychology student get into it to "heal themselves", I think many accounting and MBA's get into it to " figure a way to make money without spending any or offering any kind of service". There is no place for that kind of thinking in "Artist Developement". Sorry.
Too bad accountants and MBA's don't have to do an internship in a mom & pop store. It oughtta be necessary, especially in our business.
10. Alright, back to "our people". So it was also put on the producers to turn crap into gold. science has already proven that it can't be done "reliably and ongoingly' (I put that there to stem off the people who wouyld gloat that they pulled that one off, shame on them for taking pride in what amounts to be nothing more than a guilty pleasure,,and a check). When that didn't happen enough to "raise all boats", the blame must shift elswhere.
11. The master number. Well, the equipment manufacturers have accountants too! Greg Mackie's must be one happy boy! Soundcraft's must be too. Neve and SSL and Focusrite's have moved into the "part time" world. Just kidding.
So equipment is really cheap, made in China, but, not half bad, ,,,,in the right hands.
Now this is where I bring it AaaaaaLLL HOME, SO SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION!
With equipment soooo cheap artists are tempted to buy it, and ruin their possibilities getting bogged in tech, instead of recorded in studios with professionals for the same buck, only they get a finished product that serves them.
More than every other artist I run into either has a full blown prosumer studio which takes them forever to put out a product that is substandard from an engineer's or true artistic point of view, or, is telling me which big piece of gear they wanna get next and soliciting my opinion.
I tell them all the same thing:
The great producers started by putting whatever gear they had to get the job done together and making it work, well and moving up from there, that's producer/engineers, most not songwriter/artists.
An artist should have a simple piece of gear that is capable of eight tracks, a drum machine or whatever to keep time assuming they will or need to, a mic (I got a guy signed to a deal with capitol recs, a major, with ONE microphone, well selected and placed, of course) and an instrument or the like, because, IT IS THE SONG, NOT THE GEAR, OR THE STUDIO, OR THE PRICE, OR THE LOCATION, OR THE RELATIVE OR WHO YOU KNOW, OR THE LAWYER, OR THE ACCOUNTANT, OR THE MERCHANDISING, OR THE ALMIGHTY BLOWJOB that makes a hit and an artists career move on up like Weezy and George (sorry Lenny K.)
If we've lost sight of that, which we have, we don't deserve to perform one of our creator's sacred duties of music and song, yeah, that's the first thing we lost sight of that it comes from someplace we can't touch when done right, and that you can feel the hair standup on the back of your neck when in the presence of that kind of greatness and the goosebumps, oooooooh I miss them. When was the last time you got those from a recording with no blow-job or artist trying to pay for the session "in kind" involved?
Screw the rent, the utility co, my belly moanin, I ain't recording one more note unless the real criteria are met, I've been sitting it out for a long time too. Gear is a white albatross around an artists neck just like a label is. I liked it better when it was either" Indie" or not.

[pvassil3]

uh, wow. i guess i should say thank you brian. being young and not into the feild fully i now have a little better understanding of everything.

[Brian]

The point is be one thing or another, don't be all things to all people it doesn't happen, you gotta be one thing first. And don't fall victim to the stupidity of others, and don't be scared to either, sometimes being a sucker is the way to an open door to something greater. But DEFINATELY don't listen to MBA's about your career. If your career is just a good idea what happens when it ain't?

[blaccard]

Personally, I'm disapointed that no one understood Napster, or file sharing. Which led to music biz "confusion".

Before the internet there were thousands of independant BBS (bulletin board systems) run both by pros and hobbiests. There was lots of file sharing. ZIP files (PKZIP), or McCaffee, are 2 companies that flourished from free distribution on BBS's. File sharing leads to success.

I and most people I know purchased more CD's during the days of Napster because I got turned on to different stuff. The people who never buy CD's copy them anyway. They are not part of the purchasing public. Just like in the old days when you made cassette copies of a record. The older days of radio allowed you to get turned on to new stuff. New radio and MTV doesn't. Big corporations now force feed the viewer the type of music they want you to buy, backed by clothing ads, promos for the records, etc.

Napster was an enemy because the recording industry lost control of what they wanted the majority of the kids or public to listen to.

Pricing is a big fuck up for CD's. Lets see.. try and purchase Robin Trowers "Bridge of Sighs" or the New York Dolls first record. Oddly they cost sometimes just as much as an artist like Brittany Spears. You think those record companies put as much money into the Dolls as Britanny?

Why not give older artists a chance to make money. It's hard to find stuff like the pixies, or dead boys, bow wow wow.... My point is the companies could have released this stuff for pennies and got these artists some revenue, but they weren't into that....

The Blue Man Group was dropped by Virgin because it wasn't good enough for those assholes. They were picked up by a small label.. The success of the Internet site and promotion of the Complex rock tour is a testiment on how one can record their own CD and sell out stadiums nationwide with no help from the radio , MTV, or VH1..

See http://www.blueman.com

[Brian]

The big record labels did put more money into The DOLLS and TROWER because they got signed when recording funds were $500k , did they get their money back? Maybe. But what was different then? TheA&R guys used to look for ARTISTS instead of the new 'formula"=the BEAN COUNTERS GET CONNED BY CON ARTISTS. Big difference. There used to be a guy named John Hammond, not the singer, the A&R guy, he was a regular guy, looking for artists instead of blowjobs, he found and signed DYLAN, SPRINGSTEEN, and when he died he had a kid named Ned Massey he was showcasing, yeah Ned had Talent too. Then John died of a heart attack. Saddest day in the music biz. Then Jerry Love of Famous Music Publishing retired, the next saddest day in music. I didn't know John , but I knew some of his acts personally and they loved him, I knew Jerry and his acts loved him too. Both looked for artists with songs. That is exactly NOT what's happening today, if it is all A&R people have no talent or training from the TRUE MASTERS!