RegisterRegister
Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages
Log inLog in
FAQ  -  SEARCH  -  MEMBERS  -  FAVORITES  -  PROFILE
Classic recordings that are out of tune
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.   printer-friendly view    Tape Op Message Board Forum Index -> 5/03-2/05: General Recording
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
tonewoods
buyin' a studio


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 884
Location: Orcas Island, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

The outro guitar solo on "Takin' Care of Business"...

OH MY GAWD!! Embarassed
_________________
"You see, the whole thing about recording is the attempt at verisimilitude--not truth, but the appearance of truth."
Jerry Wexler
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
trianglelines
takin' a dinner break


Joined: 14 Dec 2003
Posts: 193
Location: Sunny Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

The Fall are almost always out of tune...

John Leckie (Producer) said the worst thing he ever did was sneak into the studio and tune the bands' guitars for them. Totally wrecked their "thing."

-TimT
_________________
Post-Punk Power Pop
Popstar Assassins
http://www.popstarassassins.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Fieryjack
steve albini likes it


Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 385
Location: New York, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

He he he,

The Fall are always out of tune. That is definitely their "sound" kinda like Kinks. (funnily enough, I think Mark E. Smith's favorite band is the Kinks....)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Stephen
steve albini likes it


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 306
Location: Douglas

PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

Listen to the vocals on Surf City... Kind of charming actually...
Pax, Steve
_________________
Necessity is a mother....
http://instantdogma.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
theblue1
audio school graduate


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

SKEETER wrote:
There is a somewhat obscure album by Jefferson Airplane called "Thirty Seconds over Winterland". The vocals on it are atrocious! But there is something about the album that makes it really good, there are a couple of cool sounding songs on it. The drummer on it is one of the unsung heroes of rock drummers, Johnny Barbeta. He also played drums on the live CSNY "Four Way Street" on the electric set. The guy has a sound all his own.


I was just listening to their earlier live album, Bless Its Pointed Little Head, last night and then only a few minutes later, read in a thread elsewhere that the drummer through much of the classic period of the airplane, Spencer Dryden had died last week. (not to be confused with Skip Spence, the original Airplane drummer and later guitarist for Moby Grape) . In fact, the reason I put the album (and Crown of Creation, too, while I was at it) on was because a buddy and I had been talking earlier in the evening about Spencer Dryden's great, really human drumming.

________________________________________________


Anyhow, on the pitch thing, I totally agree that there are a lot of great songs with less than perfect vocals.

But one thing a lot of folks, even musicians, don't always get, is that the guitar and piano (especially) have scales which are approximations of the mathmatically pure, but generally impractical pitch values based on Pythagorean intervals. (Other instruments may offer the instrumentalist some ability to sharpen or flatten the pitch by minute amounts when playing. And, actually, some guitarists perhaps instinctively manipulate the pitch of strings as they play with subtle bending strategies.)

True harmonic intervals sound sweet to the ear and very good acapella singing groups tend to gravitate toward mathmatically 'correct' intervals.

But if there is a modulation, the new intervals do not fall on exactly the same pitch as might be expected by someone whose experience is solely with even-tempered scales.

If an instrument could be instantly retuned to match those mathmatically exact frequencies, as a good singing group will instinctively do, we wouldn't need the approximation of the even-tempered scale, which 'splits the difference' in the range of values a given 'note' might fall on depending on the key. (An early attempt at a portable or modulatable scale was called the 'mean-tempered' scale not because it 'sounded mean' as one hapless writer in Electronic Musician once wrote, but because it was an attempt at an average or mean between the range of possible values.)

(I'm rotten at explaining this. Here's a possible better explanation and then a slightly confusingly formatted 'dialog' between the writer and someone. And all of it in the context of a larger discussion on pitch correction, its 'legitimacy,' etc.)


Anyhow, when a singer or singers tries to sing the true pitch of certain notes against, say, a hold note on an organ, one of them will sound 'off' because the organ is playing the pitch as determined by the dictates of the even-tempered scale while the singer is singing the note dictated by the 'true' Pythagorean interval.

So, a singer could be singing the actual true pitch, but an inartful arrangement could undercut the singer and make him or her sound 'out of tune.'

[This is why tight harmony groups often avoid accompaniment by organs and the like, sometimes using a rhythmic, even staccato guitar, or using keyboard arrangements that avoid potential conflicts -- or often skipping chordal accompaniment altogehter.]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Stephen
steve albini likes it


Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 306
Location: Douglas

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

theblue1 wrote:
SKEETER wrote:
There is a somewhat obscure album by Jefferson Airplane called "Thirty Seconds over Winterland". The vocals on it are atrocious! But there is something about the album that makes it really good, there are a couple of cool sounding songs on it. The drummer on it is one of the unsung heroes of rock drummers, Johnny Barbeta. He also played drums on the live CSNY "Four Way Street" on the electric set. The guy has a sound all his own.


I was just listening to their earlier live album, Bless Its Pointed Little Head, last night and then only a few minutes later, read in a thread elsewhere that the drummer through much of the classic period of the airplane, Spencer Dryden had died last week. (not to be confused with Skip Spence, the original Airplane drummer and later guitarist for Moby Grape) . In fact, the reason I put the album (and Crown of Creation, too, while I was at it) on was because a buddy and I had been talking earlier in the evening about Spencer Dryden's great, really human drumming.

________________________________________________


Anyhow, on the pitch thing, I totally agree that there are a lot of great songs with less than perfect vocals.

But one thing a lot of folks, even musicians, don't always get, is that the guitar and piano (especially) have scales which are approximations of the mathmatically pure, but generally impractical pitch values based on Pythagorean intervals. (Other instruments may offer the instrumentalist some ability to sharpen or flatten the pitch by minute amounts when playing. And, actually, some guitarists perhaps instinctively manipulate the pitch of strings as they play with subtle bending strategies.)

True harmonic intervals sound sweet to the ear and very good acapella singing groups tend to gravitate toward mathmatically 'correct' intervals.

But if there is a modulation, the new intervals do not fall on exactly the same pitch as might be expected by someone whose experience is solely with even-tempered scales.

If an instrument could be instantly retuned to match those mathmatically exact frequencies, as a good singing group will instinctively do, we wouldn't need the approximation of the even-tempered scale, which 'splits the difference' in the range of values a given 'note' might fall on depending on the key. (An early attempt at a portable or modulatable scale was called the 'mean-tempered' scale not because it 'sounded mean' as one hapless writer in Electronic Musician once wrote, but because it was an attempt at an average or mean between the range of possible values.)

(I'm rotten at explaining this. Here's a possible better explanation and then a slightly confusingly formatted 'dialog' between the writer and someone. And all of it in the context of a larger discussion on pitch correction, its 'legitimacy,' etc.)


Anyhow, when a singer or singers tries to sing the true pitch of certain notes against, say, a hold note on an organ, one of them will sound 'off' because the organ is playing the pitch as determined by the dictates of the even-tempered scale while the singer is singing the note dictated by the 'true' Pythagorean interval.

So, a singer could be singing the actual true pitch, but an inartful arrangement could undercut the singer and make him or her sound 'out of tune.'

[This is why tight harmony groups often avoid accompaniment by organs and the like, sometimes using a rhythmic, even staccato guitar, or using keyboard arrangements that avoid potential conflicts -- or often skipping chordal accompaniment altogehter.]

We used to joke that my former producer played the ill-tempered clavier...
(He was a bit of a curmudgeon...)
Pax, Steve
_________________
Necessity is a mother....
http://instantdogma.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
uk03878
ass engineer


Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

Carole King - Tapestry
Is it her nasal voice or is she simply singing flat through every song?

Outkast - Hey Ya
Turn it up loud and listen to that acoustic guitar and then try and listen to the song ever again without whincing - what ? WHAT are you playing??
It get's better as you go through the song - but at the beginning - wrong rhythm - wrong key

Black Crowes - Thorn in my Pride
Rich Robinsons acoustic intro - various notes pulled sharp and associated bum notes/fret buzzes
(well they did record the album in 8 days)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
theblue1
audio school graduate


Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

Stephen wrote:

We used to joke that my former producer played the ill-tempered clavier...
(He was a bit of a curmudgeon...)
Pax, Steve


Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
tfred812
studio intern


Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
Location: Marblehead, Mass.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

Quote:
"Has no one mentioned that gawdawful solo in The Troggs 'Wildthing'?
Talk about a teeth clenching moment."

"what is it, a recorder?"


It's an ocarina, sir.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rigsby
mixes from purgatory


Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 2908
Location: London, England

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

tfred812 wrote:
Quote:
"Has no one mentioned that gawdawful solo in The Troggs 'Wildthing'?
Talk about a teeth clenching moment."

"what is it, a recorder?"


It's an ocarina, sir.


Pretty ambitious to play well the ocarina, was it one of the group?
_________________
The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away.

rigsbysmith.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
soundguy
ghost haunting audio students


Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 3182
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

Robert Plant really blew himself out in the early years of Led Zeppelin, he really had trouble staying in tune after 1971, thats the biggest bummer to me when I hear those records, but at least you can hear him trying to hit the notes. Perry Farrell jjust seems flat on everything thing he has ever done, I think Ive accepted that as a style. Frank Sinatra with his whopping mastery of half an octave range always seemed to have trouble with "oooo" vowel sounds, they generally seem to waver. Beyond that, any old recoriding of a mellotron is gonna have some magic moment on it...

dave
_________________
http://www.glideonfade.com
one hundred percent discrete transistor recording with style and care.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
skinnyemo77
takin' a dinner break


Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Posts: 152
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

I didn't feel like scrolling through 7 pages, but if no one has mentioned Black Love by The Afghan Whigs, I'm going to.

That album is littered with Greg Dulli's gloriously off-key vocals.

Somebody mentioned Pavement being more charming than Malkmus & The Jicks because of the singing around notes. One could make the same case regarding Afghan Whigs and The Twilight Singers (Dulli's new project).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JGriffin
zen recordist


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6739
Location: criticizing globally, offending locally

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

skinnyemo77 wrote:
I didn't feel like scrolling through 7 pages, but if no one has mentioned Black Love by The Afghan Whigs, I'm going to.

That album is littered with Greg Dulli's gloriously off-key vocals.

Somebody mentioned Pavement being more charming than Malkmus & The Jicks because of the singing around notes. One could make the same case regarding Afghan Whigs and The Twilight Singers (Dulli's new project).


Yeah, there's some vocal warts on "Gentlemen" as well. Fantastic vocalist, Dulli.
_________________
"Jeweller, you've failed. Jeweller."

"Lots of people are nostalgic for analog. I suspect they're people who never had to work with it." Brian Eno

All the DWLB music is at http://dwlb.bandcamp.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
stevemoss
alignin' 24-trk


Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 58
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

I've got an older 2-disc Best of the Animals compilation where the mix they use of Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood entirely goes on the chorus - tape speed changes and it's horrible.
_________________
Glorified Demos
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Fieryjack
steve albini likes it


Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 385
Location: New York, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Classic recordings that are out of tune Reply with quote

I've got one: Does anybody remember the Beatles' "I'll Be Back Again"? Paul sings the high harmony.

"....and I would be sad if our new love was in VAIN."

Paul totally bungles up the "Vain" (2nd verse, I think) and his voice just gives and can't hit the note. Martin and company have since fixed it, so if you want to hear it you'll have to listen to an earlier pressing.....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.   printer-friendly view    Tape Op Message Board Forum Index -> 5/03-2/05: General Recording All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 7 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum