best mics to a record grand piano?

[oxfist]

my pops is trying to piece together an entry level set-up for recording his grand piano at home to send to a friend, and i am not quite sure where to steer him in the mic department. he's not looking to spend all that much at the moment, so should i steer him down the slippery slope of chinese condensors, or will dynamics like 57's work for his rudimentary, documentary efforts?

[joel hamilton]

I would get a pair of the cheapest OMNI condensers (audix?) you can find, or maybe some oktava 012's for this. If this recording is supposed to document the sound of a person in a given space, to remember that person IN that space... get the omni's. They will sound more like when you are in the room with the piano.

If you are trying to document performances, get the cardioid(oktava) mics and not involve the room so much.

[silversound]

Oktavas will work well for the money. 57's have too much bass rolloff.

[cgarges]

About a year ago I discovered the beauty of using Audio Technica AT 4051s on piano while recording NY jazz giant Frank Kimbrough (Maria Schneider Big Band). Frank said it was the best piano sound he'd ever gotten on a session. If you're asking about mics like the SM57, these are WAY out of your price range, but Audio Technica used to make a mic called the 4031, which was replaced by the 4041. These mics are cardioid-only small-diapraghm condensers that are a sort of little brother to the 4051. I'd try to find a pair of 4031s, 'cause they're great mics that not a lot of people know about. AT also makes the Pro 37R, which is a mic similar in price to a 57 new (give or take), which is earning an excellent reputation. It's a fairly bright mic, but that may work to your advantage.

Is this for solo piano, or is he sending the material to a friend for overdubs or anything?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Professor]

Well here I go again... it depends.

I just ran a test recording last week with 21 microphone channels around one 9' grand piano in the studio to experiment a little and hear what mics work best for different situations.

We setup 2x SM-57s, 2x Neumann TLM-193s and 2x Neumann U-67s inside the piano, two MBHO 648-PZM mics on the floor in front of the piano, a Beta 52 and ElectroVoice RE-20 under the piano, an RCA 77D in front of and above the piano, two MBHO omni mics on a Jecklin disc behind the player's head, a pair each of Earthworks QTC-1 and SR-77s on a stereo bar 6-feet out and two Mid-Side pairs with a Studio Projects LSD-2 and MBHO mics also 6-feet out. They were all recorded simultaneously while the performer played about a half dozen jazz tunes.

As for the results, well, I didn't intend to pick one mic, I intend to pick one track and record a CD with one tune played maybe 12 times trough each different pair, so students can listen to and study the different sounds and colors. Each setup has a unique quality that works well for certain applications. So, your dad might play classical, jazz or boogie-woogie rock, and each would want a different character. He may be just playing and want to hear his progress or he may be trying to assemble a CD as a gift to friends and family. He might be teaching lessons and want the students to hear their sound. The piano might be in a nice sounding room or it might be in a noisy living room. Heck, it might be an upright, 5' or 7' grand.

I would shy away from the 57s, because the EQ is tilted so strangely on those mics that the sound will not work out terribly well, though it can get strong low end if you put them right up against the sound board and the lack of high-end in the mics will cover up the clashing harmonics of bad tuning.

A pair of moderately priced condensers are a good start, and I agree with both opinions stated above, that caridoid is a good choice in a bad room while omni is a good choice in a nice room, and also that the Audio Technica 4051s are some of the sweetest sounding small diaphragm cardioids around (4049 are omni) and the 4041 are cardioid without removable capsules (cheaper). I purchased four 4051s for the school mic locker with the extra 4049 & 4053 capsules for one pair. They are great.

Another way to go that is very popular among piano teachers is to get a couple of inexpensive PZM microphones like the Crown Sound-Grabber II (retail around $125 each, battery powered with a 1/4" output) and tape them to the walls or place them on bookshelves on either side of the room. Depending on the room and placement you can get a nice sounding recording of the full piano sound coming together within the space. Any of the Audio Technica PZMs would also be a good choice though many require phantom (not sure what you're recording to) though some run on batteries. You could also check eBay for used PZM (also called boudary mics) since those are often used in board rooms, conference rooms and video conferencing systems and come up regularly for auction as businesses go under.

Hope that helps to get you started.

-Jeremy

[cgarges]

Heck, it might be an upright, 5' or 7' grand.

I think the one thing he specified was "grand."

That sounds like an interesting test with all the mics. Any interesting or surprising results?

Chris

[stillafool]

I saw Randy Newman on that show with the Rolling Stone reporter, "Musicians." It looked like he was using large diaphragm condensers -- looked like Neumanns, although I couldn't tell you which models. It sounded pretty good, whatever they were.

[cgarges]

Jeremy,

By the way, what do you think of the LSD-2?

Chris

[Dot]

dimestore, I recommed he start out with a pair of Behringer ECM8000 omi mics. They run about $39 each and are actually quite good. If you don't have a half-decent mic pre, the M-Audio DMP3 can be found for $129.

He could make very good recording with that set up.

[Frost]

Ive amde good recordings with my Lawsons, with U87s, with 414's, heck wiht countryman goose neck mics. I do a lot of classical and jazz work and have settled on Gefell UM70 mics, The solid state bodies are good enough but the 582 tube is better. the Large diaphram um70 or multipattern um71 is just fantastic. The solid state ones should cost around $1-1.2k for a pair. Placement gets me every style of music I need to record.
Frost

[cgarges]

Try to keep in mind that this guy is alluding to cheap mics. Maybe those Neumanns that Randy Newman had were the cheap ones. Hey, as long as they sound good.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[oxfist]

hey, i'm thankful for all of the input.
my pops is gonna be psyched.

he's playing a seven footer (i think)
in their den, which has tile floors and
very high ceilings. it sounds phenomenal
in there so i think that an omni (or 2) placed
in a good location is ideal, if not perfect.

he's saying that he wants to stay cheap
and simple, but i am trying to convince
him that having invested 35+ years of
his life into playing piano, and having a
nice instrument to work with... he needs
to archive his pieces somehow besides
MIDI files and sheet music. am i right?

any ideas about placement, and hazards to
watch out for when you're on tile would also
be appreciated.

[percussion boy]

Anyone tried the Stapes omnis in this situation?

I haven't, so can't make a recommendation -- just seems like it might work.

[trashy]

Recently, I had the chance to record a beautiful baby grand inside a great house with HIGH ceilings. I used a couple of TapeOp DIY's, and I think they worked out really well.
I would think the Stapes would work well, too.

[citizenkeith]

I don't own any (yet), but I've heard great things about EV 635a omnis. Should run $100-$150 for a used pair.

You might want to wait for an experienced opinon before running out and buying some...