Gettin' Paid...

[twitchmonitor]

I've been doing extensive home recording as well as interning at a pretty big, well equipped studio here in San Francisco. I've developed a skill or two, mostly from countless hours recording friends for free (both at home and at various studios), interning, reading, reading, reading and just being in it. I've acquired gear that's good enough to yield some excellent recordings and even build myself one of those Dave Royer tube modified MXL mics so I'd at least have one good tube mic. As more and more work starts to trickle in I'm starting to think that I could actually charge now. Last week I spent 40+ hours recording (all unpaid) and that's on top of a regular job, so I'm getting to the point where it would make it easier for me to kill myself knowing that I was at least being paid for it.

But what kind of rates do you guys charge? I'm not really sure what's decent/average/fair. Obviously I'll have to adjust it for my specific skill/gear level and things like that, but can anybody clue me in? I'll probably be doing work in three main areas:

1. recording at home. I'm currently doing a whole album with a friend who's a singer/songwriter type guy who uses a lot of latin type percussion....shakers and whatnot. As long as it's a form of music that isn't too loud and doesn't require drums, I can do a pretty good recording.

2. freelance engineering. I have a handfull of friends who are affiliated with studios around town and I've been called in on their sessions to "make it sound better." I could easily bring my own sessions to these facilities.

3. interning at the big studio. I'm at Coast when I can be, which at this point is every Wednesday and whatever weekend days they have work. Last weekend I was left in charge of the whole shebang for the first time, but I was assisting a hotshot outside engineer. I imagine that the studio owner will have me taking some of the work that comes in soon, in addition to any bands that I might bring in.

so basically I figure the rates in each situation would probably differ. What do you guys think I should ask?

[scotsman]

Don't charge by the hour. And especially don't charge by the song or the project. That can be real trouble. Charge by the day, at least $200. just for you--not including the studio. Or if you're going to use your own place you can charge an all-inclusive day rate--I'd reccommend at least $300. or $350. for that. Think of how much $$ you have invested in the gear. Make a day last around 10 hours and take a couple of good lengthy breaks in there.

Be realistic about what can get done in a day, and talk with the artist in advance about their goals and budget. If they can only afford two or three days, make sure the number of songs is manageable (like TWO). They will always want to squeeze in more stuff than time allows. Once you have an estimate of the length of the project, book the dates and GET A DEPOSIT! UP FRONT! If they book four days get at least half up front and get the rest of the money BEFORE the end of the sessions. Don'l let any masters out 'til you are paid in-full. It's your time and your skill, and it's worth it.

Most importantly, do not be afraid to get paid. Don't be sheepish about talking money. You are a pro now, and pros get paid. Be up-front and matter-of-fact about the money part. No "ums" and "ers" and "well, it depends"...Like someone said, it's called the Music BUSINESS, not the Music Friends. The clients will respect you and value you MORE when they are paying you. Your opinion will carry more weight. Because now, you are doing what they are paying you for. It's something that you do that they can't do.Right?

If people would get paid in this business again, and stop working for free or for peanuts, maybe we could ressurect what has become a dying industry. When I first started in '83, studios got $100. per hour and even young engineers like me made $25. an hour. In today's money, that would be like an engineer making $100. an hour, at least. Ah, life was good....but I ramble...

Good luck!

[housepig]

Don'l let any masters out 'til you are paid in-full.

Don'l let any masters out 'til you are paid in-full.

Don'l let any masters out 'til you are paid in-full.

and that means cash or cash equivalent in hand*. all of it. not "we'll settle up in a few days", not "I get paid tomorrow", not "my drummer will stop by in an hour with his share", not "I just want to hear the mix on my car stereo, can you run me a quick cd?"

(*checks? sure, they can have the masters.... when the check clears.)

oh, I'm sorry, do I sound like I've been burned a few times?

- housepig

[cgarges]

1. recording at home. I'm currently doing a whole album with a friend who's a singer/songwriter type guy who uses a lot of latin type percussion....shakers and whatnot. As long as it's a form of music that isn't too loud and doesn't require drums, I can do a pretty good recording.

If you don't have tons of experience, charge by the song or by the project. My opinions on this differ from Scotsman's simply because this will teach you how to work fast and within a budget setup by you, not the band. I've seen lots of bands spend WAY too much money on demos because they were talked into it one way or another by engineers. Usually not intentionally. I know because I used to do this, too. Then one day I woke up and thought about how much it was costing my clients to work with me. it was taking FOREVER to get projects finished because the client kept having to come up with more money. I changed my thinking pretty radically. if you're learning your craft and developing your techniques, don't charge the client for this until you know you can make something happen quickly.

This will also cause you alot of headaches, but will teach you where your limits are and when to stop or say no. Remeber, IT'S OKAY TO SAY NO SOMETIMES. It will also undoubtedly give you some stories to tell, which is often the mark of an experienced engineer. And being an experienced engineer means you've been doing enough stuff right to keep the work coming in.

2. freelance engineering. I have a handfull of friends who are affiliated with studios around town and I've been called in on their sessions to "make it sound better." I could easily bring my own sessions to these facilities.

Good deal. That helps build a client base and will make it much easier to get a staff job should you decide to. I've been building a client base in this area for about 7 years now and I'm doing alright. Having that landed me my last job and also made it possible for me to quit my last job. (I'm entirely freelance now.) I've done it by keeping my client VERY happy and having them come back to me, even if it's with a new band or by telling other bands about me.

Most studios will offer discounts on their normal rates for outside engineers bringing in projects. I try not to charge the client more total than what they would pay if they called the studio outright. Charge only what you really have to make for it to be worth your time until you've got a good grip on a few rooms you're familiar with. Kind of for the same reasons as above, but there are WAY more factors involved. I'm looking forward to you posting THOSE questions.

3. interning at the big studio. I'm at Coast when I can be, which at this point is every Wednesday and whatever weekend days they have work. Last weekend I was left in charge of the whole shebang for the first time, but I was assisting a hotshot outside engineer. I imagine that the studio owner will have me taking some of the work that comes in soon, in addition to any bands that I might bring in.

If they're leaving you "in charge" they need to be paying you. My first boss told me he'd pay me as soon as I could get a session up and running by myself. I was getting paid within a week and within a month, clients were requesting that I be there for sessions.

Use the internship to your advantage. This is probably an ideal spot for you to start building a client base, especially if you can make the room affordable for some bands who want to work with you. Give them something to talk about and people will be talking about you. ("Man, we recorded in this big, awesome room with all these awesome old mics...") BUT, try to build a relationship with an outside studio, as well. At some point, you will be glad you did this. When something breaks at Coast, tell the SM "Hey let me call my buddy over at Good Dudes Recording. They'll probably let me borrow a noise gate." You'll be a hero at Coast and when something breaks at Good Dudes, Coast will return the favor. And you'll be the middle man without it costing them anything.

Congratulations. It sounds like you're totally on the right track. Don't move to Charlotte.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[willovercome]

i would say charge by the song or project and day. for example 6 songs 2 days max $300. even if you have experience, you're good and fast, if you have no recordings to your credit it's not wise to charge too much for a recording. once you build a small arsenal of credits with good quality, then you can start to charge more.

[@?,*???&?]

Don't charge by the hour.

I disagree with this. Everything takes longer than it should. To do your best work, you can labor a great many hours without the band around. Make the work as good as you possibly can and you will be rewarded for it. If the price overshoots what's budgeted in the end- haggle at the end of the project. $25 to $35 an hour should be a solid starting wage. For major label projects, get into the $50 to $60 an hour range. If you are getting paid to do this, then you are a 'skilled professional'. You are someone with an intangible craft. Don't forget the back-up time too. That eats away at every wage to a significant degree.

[rainsinvelvet]

I think alot of it has to do with how bad you want to work on a project. I prefer to charge a day rate because I like my clients to feel comfortable and not looking up at the clock every 1/2 hour. Sure, set a limit on your day(10 hours with a few breaks works for me). I think the trick is to make your clients feel at home and creative, but also make sure you get paid what its worth TO YOU. If that makes any sense. Some projects are NOT as fun as others so you charge what makes you feel good about recording them.

I decided long ago that I wasn't going to get rich recording bands, but I want to make music with folks who have "figured it out" so I try to focus on that. Being Free Lance lets you do that...I think anyhow...
Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is: Charge what will make you feel good about what you do and remember that your getting payed for doing what you love-a rare gift-.

ERic

[cgarges]

To do your best work, you can labor a great many hours without the band around. Make the work as good as you possibly can and you will be rewarded for it.

As usual, Jeff's right on with this. You can do alot of stuff there that the band might not notice or deem important enough to pay for, but if it makes a difference to you and can make the project sound better, do it on your own time. Again, this will pay off in the long run. And I'm not talking about flying drum fills around or replacing guitar parts, just little detail stuff that will contribute to the overall smoothness of the project. Especially if this is something that will ultimately save time when they ARE there.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[KingOlaf]

I hate charging by the hour. I hate clock watchers, I hate people asking me the time, how long is this going to take, Well maybe it's a good idea but I don't have the time.

I'd prefer to charge by the song or project. The trouble is the artist usually has an unrealistic estimate of how fast they can get things done. So, often they want to go by the hour; they think it will take 5 hours to record and mix a song (well, maybe) not ten or more, which often happens. My first client, a rap guy, told me he could do a whole album in "an hour or two".

I'd say, if you like the project and you really want to work on it, go by the song or project, others charge $25 an hour or so.

[Toddf]

When I was first starting out 25.00 an hour just for engineering, not studio time that would have been a dream. A lot of project studios charge 35.00 and hour with engineer. 10.00 and hour wouldn't be a bad wage for a starting out engineer and it would go up based on experience and what you can get. If you can get 25.00 an hour thats great but don't be unrealistic also. Good Luck Todd F.

[Al]

All good advice here on this subject,not much to add really!
..but dont sell yourself short,i'll bet your worth more than you give yourself credit for!

I find your rates usually increase with your confidence in your abilitys.

AL

[chemicalpink]

post a mpee3, I think this would help the board get an idea on a
rate, are we talking about demo quality or higher? if you can't
post a mpee3 or just don't want to, play somthing for the
guys at the studio you work and ask them what they think.

[twitchmonitor]

Thanks! Man, I love this board. Well, right after I post the initial post, I got a call from an engineer friend. About a month ago I'd gone to the studio where he interns and helped him record a band....well actually, he set up all the equipment/mics/gear and I just changed a handful of key things around. Both he and the band were thrilled about the difference and they recorded 6 songs that came out pretty well that day. I was probably there for 8 hours all together and got paid cab fare, $20, and I was happy with that....my friend is a good, old friend who I'm always happy to help/work with and it was a great experience for me since I'm more accustomed to being the "assistant"....I finally got to put all that drum micing technique, etc., to good use. BUT now they want the 6 songs "mastered," or some quick and dirty version and they called me. I told the guy I'd do it for $10 an hour and that I shouldn't spend any more than 5 hours on it. It's not much money, but the dividends are more than financial: I'm developing a good reputation, I'm learning a butt load as I go (eg., I've only done "mastering" on my own stuff with consumer grade equipment....so I'm going to have to call all the mastering guys I know and crack the books), and I started on the project for free, basically, so I wouldn't feel comfortable asking a bunch of money.

I'd probalby feel more comfortable charging $15/hour for recording or mixing, which I'm more well versed in. But then in that situation, I would probalby avoid the hourly rate and just go with a day or project rate.

Funny thing is that it will be a few months or maybe a year before I feel I"ll be able to ask for the same $$ my "day job" currently pays me. But hell, I'll get paid half to do something I give a damn about.

So how can I post an mp3 for you guys?

[trashy]

I like charging by the song because most of the artists I've worked with have no idea how long recording is going to take. I know how long it's going to take: alot longer than 20 minutes! Charging by the hour leads to more of the band getting freaked out with how long everything is taking. And the band is budgeting for 2 hours of studio time, when you no damn well it's gonna be at least 10. So, then the bassist has to go and ask his girlfriend 1) if it's okay that he stays later at the studio and skips out on her mom's birthday dinner and 2) if she could loan him some money until next Friday.

[twitchmonitor]

Yeah, I don't think I'd do that with a band in the studio...tensions can run higt enough without the clock ticking. But for this one "mastering" project at home, where I don't have to worry about the band sweating it out on the couch behind me, it seems like a good plan.