Anatomy of a live concert recording session

general questions, comments and ideas about recording, audio, music, etc.
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kayagum
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Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by kayagum » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:23 pm

I mentioned that I would do this after posting on the "What Did You Do Today" thread... I'm not done yet, but I can always post more later.

Anyway....so forgive me for posting a blog-like entry on this board :)

Friends of mine have been doing this a capella group for 10 years now, and they were calling it quits. They did a farewell concert, and I was asked to record them. (A referral from a mutual friend, whose project I'm still finishing 7 months later, so he doesn't hate me entirely. Yet.)

Years earlier, I recorded the same group at a museum function, and back then I just did a mono NT1 into a mono-mode minidisc via a Mackie 1202. Way humble setup, but not a bad sound all things considered. (Actually, I realized how much I like the NT1 as a room mic).

Now, as much as everyone has been ragging on equipment choice questions (myself included), I found the guidance to my questions a year ago to have panned out nicely. After a few threads and a few polls, I decided on an Alesis HD24 and a couple of RNPs. So, I wheeled in a rack and a couple of Rubbermaid totes full of cords to a college hall.

I bought a pair of NT5 for this gig, thinking that if they worked, I could make some money on the side to help defray my gear purchases. I plugged in the mics, placed them in an ORTF configuration, right in front of a low stage. I then had set up my monitoring and recording rig outside the house right door....

.... until the college hall manager went up to me and said that I couldn't place my gear there. I was blocking the handicap entrance. I wasn't happy (the singers told me to set up there- note to self, next time ask if they cleared it with building management), but I had no choice. They told me to set up in the green room (which was directly behind the stage).

Had I not brought all of my cabling, I would have been screwed. Fortunately, I brought my recording snake along, and between the mic cords and the snake, I was able to reach back. The college actually had some cord covers, so nobody would trip on the cords. Beautiful! (note to self- buy a couple for the equipment tub).

Given the new monitoring location, I had to abandon my idea of using a third mic for the room. I managed to get everything set up, but not before I really had a chance for a sound check. Oh well, I'll have to try to get it on the first song.

So, the show went on, and I kept my fingers on the gain knobs of the RNP. I decided to plug the outs straight into the HD24, and used my 1202 as a headphone monitor. The audience was way loud, and the singers were a bit softer. Damn, forgot to patch in my RNC to limit it. So, I had to choose. Boost the singers, or lower the audience. Can't change the gain cleanly (they're stepped by 6dBs). I decided to boost the singers. If the audience clipped, I don't think it would be that big of a deal.

It took me 2/3 of the concert to figure out why the audience was so loud. I forgot that the some of the audience were actually seated on stage to accommodate the extra crowd. Since I was in the green room (out of sight) I didn't visually see that, althought I had heard it.

At intermission, I checked the ORTF, and it had shifted to one side a bit (the stereo bar). No big dea. BTW, I had a straight stereo bar, which would have worked great for a coincident XY, but I wanted to do the ORTF because this was in a nice concert hall, and I wanted to hear the hall ambience. At the last minute, I bought a second stereo bar, where the two ends were jointed. A lot easier to line up the mics in the ORTF configuration. The article in the current TapeOp helped me figure it all out (thanks Larry!).

Some notes while monitoring:

* Damn, ORTF sounds nice. You can hear the location of the singers. Having seen them perform in the past, I knew they switched positions. And I could hear it in the stereo field. How cool is that!

* NT5s with the RNPs sounded great. Now, most people would have picked a "faster" (Sytek) or "cleaner" (Grace) preamp if given a choice, but I was very happy with the RNP. Why? The musical content was really sweet (I've seen the word "euphonic" to describe both the mics and the preamp, and I would have to agree. Very clear, yet very rounded.). And, even though the other preamps would have been more "accurate", I think the only things you would notice more are the climate control fans and people coughing and wheezing.

* One nice thing about the HD24 is that you can pick anywhere from 2-24 tracks. With my brand new 40GB drive, 2 tracks translated to 42+ hours. Not having to worry about space- that's a new experience for me!

* Overall sound quality- I have to add a post later about the mixdown, but I'd listen to it on public radio... reminded me of classical concerts that I would hear on the radio growing up. Only thing I'm concerned with is that because I had to place the mics so close to the stage (both in distance to the front, and proximity to the stage floor) I'm a little worried about some weird comb filtering. I think I heard some on the higher (and loud) soprano passages. Stay tuned....

For the cheapskates on this site: getting decent gear does help. I've heard some great bootlegs done on stealth mindiscs, but they do sound like bootlegs. A full setup does sound a bit more polished.

For the pros on this site: don't automatically shoot down the questions about gear or fundamental technique. I for one have benefited greatly from my newbie questions, and hopefully I can represent as someone who became a halfway decent recorder because of TapeOp.

I'm liking this location recording deal. Every gig (this goes back to my theater tech days) teaches at least one new trick or tip.

More later when I mix the damn thing down. Hopefully you all weren't bored to tears with this thread.
Last edited by kayagum on Mon Feb 07, 2005 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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joelpatterson
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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by joelpatterson » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:58 pm

I was fascinated. More! More!

I've noticed too--there is this "ultimate benchmark of a sound" for this kind of live thing, and it all boils down to the records we heard as kids. A sweet hall, a dignified air, soaring, sweeping, all you need is a few clicks and pops and you're there.
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matt250321
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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by matt250321 » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:06 pm

Yea man, awesome post. Some great tips. I too am thinking about trying this out to make some extra cash, or even just for the experience. However, my gear is very limited. I just bought the NT5's you were talking about for the very same purpose (and as a general stereo pair for overheads, ac guitar, etc...) Haven't gotten to use them yet, but I can't wait. I will either record through my tascam Us-428 into a laptop (which I don't have yet and reallly cant afford) or in a pinch run through a mixer and into my Hi-minidisc recorder with no compression. Don't really have any other options. Anyway, I hope I can start finding people who are interested soon. Thanks for the insights!
"We are emotional salesmen" -Shelly Yakus

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Scodiddly
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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by Scodiddly » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:16 am

I have some friends who used to have the idea they could make a living doing stereo recordings in the university music halls. They do video production now. So don't try to make it your main business.

The other thing is your getting kicked out of the wheelchair access area. Boy, if I had a dollar for every time I had to kick a recordist or videot out of a wheelchair/emergency-exit/aisle area. At least I have a rock-solid reason, the fire-safety laws. That's why you do need a big heap of cables or a snake. That stuff should be in your car trunk, along with a cubic foot of adapters, for every show.

All that aside, congratulations. Live recording is definitely a learning experience, partially because you don't get a second chance in most situations. I did a ragtime piano thing last year at a local church for practice, and the recording came out OK... except for the weird clicking noise. Turns out one of the earlier players, a LOUD boogie-woogie guy, actually broke the mechanism on one of the notes.

kayagum
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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by kayagum » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:42 am

I guess I was motivated to post about the experience because I think a lot of the frustrations of late on this board (see: soundguy).

Lately, I think we have a basement ghetto indie rut going on. How much can we squeeze out of a basement and $100? That's probably 2/3 of the posts I see.

It was really refreshing to record (a) in a nice, big space that was designed well, and (b) a music group that wasn't an "indie" garage band. After hearing most of the truly awful stuff on the radio that's limited to X to the unknown, it was a relief to finally hear a decent sound field, and to be able to make adjustments based on real acoustics.

Joel- true, childhood experiences play a big role. In the classical realm, I remember the first time I heard Vladmir Horowitz's homecoming concert in Moscow on CD. Mindblowing... great recording, even better performance, and you were basically crying along with the audience. (For those who are too young to remember, it was a big deal for Soviet artists to leave, and to return was unheard of). I'll spend the rest of my life trying to match that one.

I guess my main point is get out of the basement once in a while, both acoustically and stylistically. There's a whole world out there to record.
Last edited by kayagum on Tue Feb 08, 2005 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by joel hamilton » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:53 am

joelpatterson wrote:I was fascinated. More! More!

I've noticed too--there is this "ultimate benchmark of a sound" for this kind of live thing, and it all boils down to the records we heard as kids. A sweet hall, a dignified air, soaring, sweeping, all you need is a few clicks and pops and you're there.
When we weree just doing some string arrangements for the new "book of knots" record, we kept referring to the "sound of nostalgia." I printed a submix of all the string tracks to a cassette four track and then laid them back alongside the song in protools.

It is amazing how the same part, recorded a certain way, will really bring something out emotionally in the listener. Isnt that the point?

kayagum
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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by kayagum » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:13 am

matt250321 wrote:Yea man, awesome post. Some great tips. I too am thinking about trying this out to make some extra cash, or even just for the experience. However, my gear is very limited. I just bought the NT5's you were talking about for the very same purpose (and as a general stereo pair for overheads, ac guitar, etc...) Haven't gotten to use them yet, but I can't wait. I will either record through my tascam Us-428 into a laptop (which I don't have yet and reallly cant afford) or in a pinch run through a mixer and into my Hi-minidisc recorder with no compression. Don't really have any other options. Anyway, I hope I can start finding people who are interested soon. Thanks for the insights!
Actually, I'd trust your board/minidisc setup more than the 428/laptop setup. Call me paranoid, but I've seen many hard disc setups fail in a live/theater setting. I was even nervous about getting the HD24, except reputable people on this board said the operating system was pretty bulletproof. One hangup, and your recording is ruined.

Minidiscs are actually quite common in the theater and commercial radio realm. I did a whole 22 show run of looped and spot minidisc cues without a single glitch. And that was with a deck that I bought in 1997. Especially since you have a lossless setup with your minidisc, I'd go for that.

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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by matt250321 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 2:30 pm

Yea, I was thinking I would really have to have a tricked out laptop to be able to record a good hour straight of audio and not have it die on me. The minidisc's are pretty cool. The new Hi-MD players take 1gig minidiscs so it can hold about an hour and 45 minutes worth of lossless audio. I just need to try it sometime. The mic I bought with it, Sony ECM-m2907 kicks ass too. Its actually a Mid-side mic...sounds pretty good. I'm gonna have to compare it to my Nt5s sometime though, I'm sure the Rode's are better. But the sony is great in a pinch.[/quote]
"We are emotional salesmen" -Shelly Yakus

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joelpatterson
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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by joelpatterson » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:57 pm

Joel Hamilton wrote:
joelpatterson wrote:I was fascinated. More! More!

I've noticed too--there is this "ultimate benchmark of a sound" for this kind of live thing, and it all boils down to the records we heard as kids. A sweet hall, a dignified air, soaring, sweeping, all you need is a few clicks and pops and you're there.
When we weree just doing some string arrangements for the new "book of knots" record, we kept referring to the "sound of nostalgia." I printed a submix of all the string tracks to a cassette four track and then laid them back alongside the song in protools.

It is amazing how the same part, recorded a certain way, will really bring something out emotionally in the listener. Isnt that the point?
Yes! That's the point, the point, point, point!

Lately my thinking is that it's all about the cues--the little subterranean homesick cues that spark your little subsonic memories and reactions. Subliminal, subsurface, suburban.
Mountaintop Studios
~The Peak of Perfection~
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mountaintop@taconic.net

kayagum
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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by kayagum » Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:38 pm

I'm listening to the concert recording for the first time in the basement studio.

* The stereo field sounds as good as I remembered it. Really like you were there.

* The main sounds (the singers) isn't as brutally forward in the mix as I've heard in other concert recordings, but that's a good thing in my book. Plenty of levels, though. I doubt it's going to need much EQ at all.

* The audience is indeed clipping, but only some loud clapping peaks... if I adjust the overall/RMS level down, I don't think it's going to be an issue at all.

* Comparing the headphone mix with the monitor mix, boy I need to get some 703 fiberglass loaded in the corners. Bass response is very different between the two, and it's never been more obvious.

I hope my friend is happy with the results- you can't redo a farewell performance, but I think it's all there, and the emotion is there as well.

Thanks for putting up with me while I described this little journey. .

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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by Scodiddly » Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:50 am

Minidisc is a nice backup for the laptop - I like to take mine along and have it recording in case the computer dies. Even a minidisc from a stereo submix is better than nothing.

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Re: Anatomy of a live concert recording session

Post by lifeintime » Wed Feb 09, 2005 6:29 am

Joel Hamilton wrote:
joelpatterson wrote:I was fascinated. More! More!

I've noticed too--there is this "ultimate benchmark of a sound" for this kind of live thing, and it all boils down to the records we heard as kids. A sweet hall, a dignified air, soaring, sweeping, all you need is a few clicks and pops and you're there.
When we weree just doing some string arrangements for the new "book of knots" record, we kept referring to the "sound of nostalgia." I printed a submix of all the string tracks to a cassette four track and then laid them back alongside the song in protools.

It is amazing how the same part, recorded a certain way, will really bring something out emotionally in the listener. Isnt that the point?
Yes, that is exactly the point.
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