The 20 Year Rule

[soundguy]

yeah, 20 years ago, if you didnt go to an arcade to play them, they all kinda sucked.

didnt mean we didnt play the shit out of them though, punk rock man. there appears to be a grate beneath the pile of leaves.

anyone here lame enough to remember Infidel? If you thought zork was tough, holy fucking shit, my friends would play that game after school and we could never get inside the fucking pyramid.

dave

[nacho459]

I agree with the concept of the 20 years rule, I love my AG440 and my Altec gear. I take pride in using gear that was built when my father was younger then I am today.

That said you gotta ask yourself, "is this gonna make me money?" "Is this gear gonna make a noticeable improvement in the sound of my recordings, or make things easier?" If it's a radical purchase like new monitors, a console, or a sweet mic pre that is going to improve the way you record and improve every recording you do I say go for it. I try to think of it this way. I'm gonna have a hard time justifing spending a grand on a mic that I will use way less then an SM57. But spending $400 on a UAD card that I'm gonna use on every session is a no brainer.

You can either try to stay current and be constantly updating, or find what works for you and stick with it until you Have to upgrade because your SCSI SyQuest drive on your Quadra 605 craps out.

[Rigsby]

You can either try to stay current and be constantly updating, or find what works for you and stick with it until you Have to upgrade because your SCSI SyQuest drive on your Quadra 605 craps out.

I'm with the latter, seems meaningless to me to endlessly upgrade for no other reason than to stay current. I'm not running a commercial place though, and as we've recently seen, paying clients who don't really know whats what when it comes to gear seem to concern themselves over whether you have the current piece of software/hardware that people are talking about or not, as this seems to them to be a good indicator of whether or not you can get the job done, which i guess i understandable, but tricky for the studio owner i imagine.

[DryCounty]

I would love to be able to afford a lot of the vintage gear that is raved about on this board, and I'm sure durability is a major factor here -- but does that automatically make it a classic piece?

At what point does anything become a "classic" simply because it's been around for so long, and overtakes the consideration of it's sound? Is there an audio equivalent of the Kodak brownie? I'm sure there is (califone, maybe?) but certainly someday someone is going to say that that particular turntable is a classic, and maybe they are...?

I remember someone on the board once posted about how in x number of years we'd all be scrambling to find an ADAT because we wanted that particular "classic" Alesis sound. This was a great quote!

Even with computer hardware -- the durability of SCSI drives has yet to be matched, a testament to the engineering at that time. And with software -- the core of Mac OS X is based on UNIX which has in one form or another been around since the 60's.

BTW, Soundguy that line about the "sluice gates" was hysterical! There is a locked door ahead. Unlock door. You cannot unlock door. Break door. You cannot break door. Fuck door. You can't do that! Tear the fucking door down! You can't do that! Eat shit and die! What a loony!

http://www.xs4all.nl/~pot/infocom/zork1.html

[lifeintime]

20 years for technology, especially this day in age is a long long time. As technology gets more advanced it also changes faster..the LP record was used for like 70 years. the CD has only been out around 14 and it will/is slowly be replaced in the next few..thats kindof scary

actually, the cd is almost 23 years old. and i definitely still buy records (new and used).

Funny you should mention that. I had a converstation yesterday where the question of who released the first CD came up.

He says Springsteens "Born in the USA".

[chetatkinsdiet]

What's the latest hi-end gear anyway? I'm talking plugins and hardware....
Let's see.......

Plugins:

1176
LA2A
Pultec
Moog
Virtual Instruments of things like tube Hammond organs, Fender Rhodes, Wurly's, Moog's, PPG, etc.

Real hardware:

Soundelux mics that mimic vintage Neuman mics.
AEA, Royer and other ribbon mics that are copies of old RCA, B&O and other designs.
Tube mics from just about everyone that are copies or derivitives of a 251, U47, C12, etc.....
Reissues from Neve, API, Trident, Urei, Universal Audio, etc.

There's really nothing that's actually new out there. What's the latest new thing, other than using digital or computers in the first place that's really being used now? Maybe the Lex 480 or something like that, but really if you go into any really high end studio, you'll see the same old cast of characters that you found 20-30 years ago. Again, with the exception of the recording media, it's all the same as 20 years ago.

So, I gotta agree with the original post.

later,
m

[The Real MC]

I also have the 20-year standard when buying gear. My studio is MIDI analog/ROMplers/drum brain with a PC MIDI sequencer plus SMPTE/MIDI card slaved to whatever standalone recorder I use. The MIDI sequencer is running on an antique 486 running Windows for Workgroups 3.11 which is the predecessor of Windows 95. Yes it's old, I can't do digital audio or plugins but it works great for MIDI and SMPTE. WFW311 has far less DLL junk than W9x/WINNT to interfere with MIDI and my sequences have no detectable latency. It ain't broke so I don't need to fix it.

It saves $$$ not having to upgrade so often. Computers and software go obsolete so fast that it is ridiculous, although it's a great business model for software houses and retailers to have planned obsolesence. Well, I got my own retirement to fund, not theirs.

When I needed a digital reverb, I opted for a hardware unit (Eventide 2016). All of my processing are hardware units. I am well aware of the benefits of software plugins and softsynths but

• - unless you have a hardware accelerator (more $$$ to spend), plugins put a load the CPU which increases the latency.
  - plugins are only as good as long as the platform/PC is supported.
  - copy protection can disrupt the system.
  - Windows is not optimized for MIDI/Pro Audio as the Apple Mac is.
  - softsynths/VAs have an achilles heel - the filter isn't as good as the real analog filter. Only two products I heard at NAMM showed promise - WayOutWare 2600 and Arturia CS-80V. I'm a discriminating analog synth owner.

Yes there is a plugin for 2016 reverbs, but you need the full version of ProTools ($$$$$), runs only on Mac, need a hardware accelerator card ($$$$), and iLok. That's a LOT more money than the hardware unit.

I get a lot more bang for my buck buying hardware.

To be fair, there are hardware that is getting impractical. Up until a year ago I still had my heart set on buying a used analog multitrack but was turned off by dwindling tape suppliers, calibration issues, and replacing worn tape heads. I decided the maintenance issue wasn't worth it. So my next multitrack purchase will be a HD recorder - Alesis HD24. And here's where the 20 year standard is met - The HD24 uses standard IDE drives used in PCs, which have been standard since 1990, can be bought anywhere, and shows no sign of being obsolete anytime soon.

This is not to be construed that I don't like software, and not to turn this thread into a software-vs-hardware fight.

[twitchmonitor]

While I don't adhere to something as strict as a "20 year rule," I do try to invest in gear that I think will last me a while. I've pretty much decided to stop investing in digital stuff as it just gets out of date so quick that I can't keep up...then there's all the updates, learning the new software, etc. I'd rather spend my time making music than reading another manual. So for effects I buy hardware instead of software. I still have some of the original bombfactory stuff and I'm still running PT on OS9 with all the plugs I've been using for 2 years. I'm getting outboard compressors, too. And when I mix, I try to use as much outboard gear in the mix as possible...I usually have an RNC, VLA, SPX 90, Nano Verb (?!) and Deluxe Memory Man running on inserts. Which means I get more and more familliar with the gear I already have, don't have to buy the newest Lex plug-in (or whatever) and save DPS. While I'm not a proper studio owner, I do work freelance and do a good bit of overdubbing and mixing at my home studio. When people see that I have pro tools, two good sets of reference monitors, a rack of decent outboard gear, a big selection of mic and that I know what I'm doing, I NEVER hear about the thingamagigy that I don't have that the client wants. Just hasn't happened yet.

None of my shit is particularly expensive, either. My tube mic is the Royer modded mxl 2001 from Tape Op, my 1272 clones I built from Seventh Circle kits, I snagged some lesser known but really useful mics from the 'bay.....I mean, I'm shamelessly using a Nano Verb for cryin' out loud! I don't have a million dollar studio, but I have just enough of everything to keep clients happy.

[RefD]

You have been eaten by a Grue.

[joel hamilton]

Having any sort of "rule" seems like a mistake to me.

Too many good things that help me make good records with good people that are from many different era's.

"well maintained" would be one of the only "rules" I have for my gear, so it works every day, with me and for me.

[nestle]

There's really nothing that's actually new out there. What's the latest new thing, other than using digital or computers in the first place that's really being used now? Maybe the Lex 480 or something like that, but really if you go into any really high end studio, you'll see the same old cast of characters that you found 20-30 years ago. Again, with the exception of the recording media, it's all the same as 20 years ago.

While I agree with some of this, what's new?
what about REASON? it blows my mind and does alot of things nothing else will-

Though I will not be changing my core system at home PT's on OS9 anytime soon I think this 20 year thing is hogwash. There is plenty of innovation out there, just cobble the old and the new together and do your own thing.

[hollywood_steve]

For me its not a strict rule, but I agree that I tend to view EVERY purchase as a life long committment. And that's why I refuse to buy 99% of the gear sold in places like GC or the big mail order houses. Fortunately, there are now dozens of small, high quality manufacturers building gear to true pro standards. It was only a few years ago that in order to find gear that would last 20 years, you had to choose from equipment that was already 30 or 40 years old! It was really sad when a piece of 30 year old gear had a better chance for long term survival than the new gear then available.

This resulted in me purchasing old gear for several years until there were finally a lot of high quality products being offered by small companies. In the last few years, I have purchased new gear almost exclusively; but still with the goal of everything lasting for my lifetime. This has worked out well as I now have a studio filled with a combination of the best of new technology and a collection of old classics. One great example is the new API 7800 / 8200 mixer matched with a lunchbox filled with 35 year old 550 modules and 312 preamps. No matter what type of technological changes occur over the coming years, I can almost guarantee that I will still be using this API gear as long as I am still actively recording; hopefully a lot longer than just another 20 years!

[The Tallman]

"Rules are made to keep children from falling"
Madame de Stael

BTW Besides quoting a French Philosopher, I have nothing of merit to contribute to this discussion.

[I'm Painting Again]

i thought this was going to be about "20 years to master any craft"..

but yeah quality is important to me..