Bouncing to disk for a client. L1 or no L1?

[the riff]

I always debate over this when making a mix for a client. I Can throw an L1 on the master fader so it gives it that "loud" sound that clients are used to listening to. It's always a bit strange for me to do that, since I obviously don't mix with the L1 on the fader. I'm always afraid of bouncing without that and then the client saying "I dunno dude, it doesn't sound as loud as my other cds".

What do others do?

If so, what are usually your settings when running this?

Anyone throw anything else on the master fader when bouncing?

[mingus2112]

Well. It won't be as loud as a mastered CD. I would explain the mastering process to a client before during and after the session. It's an important part of the recording process.

HOWEVER, if they are making this cd for personal use. . .not distributing it. . .and they still want the L1 on there. . .explain the difference. Hell, even make 2 mixes for them.

-James

[Mark Alan Miller]

I explain as simply and cleary the difference between mastered and not mastered CDs, and then ask for (any always get) permission to give them the lecture on the diminishing returns in the mastering 'volume wars'.

If they still want a loud-ish reference CD, I make them one (with L1 or whatever) and clearly, boldly label it NOT FOR DUPLICATION, MASTERING OR DISTRIBUTION and lecture them (whether they give me permission or not) as to why. That rarely has to happen, though, as most folks understand what's going on when it's explained to them.

[Red Rockets Glare]

I say use it if it sounds cool to you, just be careful to set the release time nice and high to avoid distortion.

[Shawn Simmons]

I always put the L2 on a rough mix for a client. I don't use any limiting plug-ins on my actual mixes, just on rough mixes. I think it's important for a client to be excited about their project/music and having a loud rough mix helps them get excited. And I got tired of having to explain why it wasn't as loud as their other CD's.

Use the L1 or L2 or whatever.

shawn

[the riff]

I always put the L2 on a rough mix for a client. I don't use any limiting plug-ins on my actual mixes, just on rough mixes. I think it's important for a client to be excited about their project/music and having a loud rough mix helps them get excited. And I got tired of having to explain why it wasn't as loud as their other CD's.

Use the L1 or L2 or whatever.

shawn

thanks guys.

I usually tend to lean this way more because like you I got tired of explaining why it wasn't as loud as their other cd's.
I try and use it pretty mild so it gives it just a little boost of volume.

[soundguy]

Please dont take this the wrong way or anything but learn to mix.

I dont get how people just look at buss limiting as a way to make a mix louder, as if you just stick it on there and then all of a sudden the mix is just louder and everything is cool.

If you are working with bands who you suspect will want their mix as loud as some other shit, how can you not be mixing into a buss limiter in the first place? Setting up a mix with a buss limiter in and with it out, for me, are just two night and day different mixes. If you know your client wants a loud mix, why are you not giving him a loud mix or at the very least prepping your mix so it will at the very least sort of work with in mastering if they chose to run it 10dB over FS.

Mixing without an buss limiter and then wondering wether or not to put it on ref's I think is really not getting the big picture right out of the gate. Im really not trying to pick a fight, I just dont see how this works.

I did a record a while back and discussed mixing without any compression, the dude had done a record prior that he was unhappy with because of the way the previous guy he worked with had compressed things, so we went through the session using limting at an ultimate minimum. The first two days of the mix, the guy had this really constipated look on his face and after mixing three songs I asked him wtf the problem was. "Its just missing something". what? "Its just not rocking". I told the dude to split and come back in three hours. He came back, I played him what was up and he shit himself. "OMG, what did you do" I put limiting across every buss and on the output, you know, set up the mix the way Id normally set things up not trying to work within a theoretical "plan" but just mixing until it sounds good. "Well, shit this rocks". Shit, it does, doesnt it. So we remixed the three songs and finished the rest of the record and that was that.

Im not sure how my stupid story fits into making sense here but it two minutes ago it seemed like it was worth telling. Just mix the shit so it sounds right. If you know its going to mastering to get really loud you had better mix with AT LEAST master buss compression as there is no way any of your balances are going to translate if you mix without limitng and then go over full scale in mastering.

I would personally reccomend learning to mix so your shit can be the way you want it to sound as well as have the level that will make your clients happy. Its a fucking crazy tight rope to walk but if you dont do it and your mixes arent loud enough, the first thing the band is gonna tell the ME is that the shit aint loud enough at which point its gonna get LOUD and when you suck all the air out of an uncompressed mix, the nice thing you had going between the drum kit and the bass guitar can wind up completely and totally wrong by the time the ME is done with it. If you meet him halfway, even if he does crank tons of level on it, you still maintain a chance of having the record sound something like what you mixed it to sound like. If the band walks out of tthe studio with something they think is really cool anyway, they are going to be less tempted (or at least this is the fantasy I want to maintain for myself) to have a ME totally change the mix.

Either way, I really dont see how a mix that wasnt mixed into a L1 is going to translate if at the very end you just slap it on there. Thats just me, maybe you guys know something I dont. Regardless, not trying to be overtly confrontatonal, I just dont see how the scenario presented would work to the mixer's benefit. Ive always seen buss limiting as the thing you mix into not the thing that gets applied to the mix after its done.

dave

[Red Rockets Glare]

Please dont take this the wrong way or anything but learn to mix.

how could anybody take that the wrong way?

I'm betting he dosen't have a stereo compressor to mix with, or even a mixing board to throw said stereo comp/limiter onto...

[Shawn Simmons]

Dave, you are totally right. Although "learn how to mix" is a little harsh. But you are right in that if you want a loud mix, then you should approach it that way from the beginning. For the longest time, I didn't have a good buss compressor/limiter (I've got one on order now) and I would rent one when it came time to do "the mix". Since I didn't have a buss comp around, whenever I ran off rough mixes, usually at 1am, I put the L2 on the buss to get the level up. I did that knowing full well that it was a temporary fix to something I would be spending much more time and effort making right later on (i.e. - the final mix). I never slammed the meters on the L2, just barely touched the limiter. I admit the L2 isn't great but it gave me what I wanted: it made my clients happy with their rough mixes. When they played the rough mix for their friends, they were excited about it. "Listen to what we're working on, isn't it awesome? What until it's done!" Instead of the alternative: "yeah, I know it's quiet, it will sound much better once it's finished". Keeping my clients happy and excited about the work that we are doing is very important to me.

shawn

[soundguy]

I'm betting he dosen't have a stereo compressor to mix with, or even a mixing board to throw said stereo comp/limiter onto...

the guy that started the thread gives me the impression he's got a L1 which is fine enough.

Here's a simple experiment anyone can do to illustrate what Im talking about.

Record a drum kit with a close mic on the kick drum and then a stereo room mic far away.

First listen to all three mics with no compression, set a nice level between the threee mics so it "makes sense". Dont change the levels on the console, then-

Run the stereo mics in series with the limiter. Set the limiter so that its compressing the kit -10dB, apply the appropriate make up gain. The uncompressed kick drum mic now probably sounds a lot different depth wise compared to the now compressed room mics.

Now run the three mics into the limiter, compress -10dB, apply appropriate make up gain. Im betting that NOW, the kick drum needs to be adjusted into the limiter so it "makes sense" the way it did before you applied the limiter.

The three setups should sound very different. Limiting tends to change spatial relationships quite a bit. It doesnt necessarily change them for better or worse (this isnt a dont use limiting tirade) but it changes things enough to where a little tweaking after applying limiting usually does you some good.

A limiter on an entire mix does the same thing. It can change your spatial relationships and can especially especially especially do this if you compressed some stufff when you mixed but didnt compress other stuff. Say you have your mix bussed out to 4 stereo busses. You have a nice balance between the 4 busses however only two of those are compressed. If you then apply a limiter to the whole mix, the relationship between the compressed busses vs. the uncompressed busses which was working before overal mix limiting might now be a little skewed.

Try it out, do some experiments and see for yourself. If you know at the end of the day that you are gonna add a buss limiter, by all means do that shit, but you'll have a better chance at having a better mix if you mix and monitor your mix with that limiter on the output from the very start vs. working all night on a great mix without monitoring mix buss compression and then adding it at the last minute. Can that work? Sure. But it does change things on a whole mix the way it will change things on just a drum kit or whatever so its kinda logical to just mix into it and make it work through the whole process of setting up the mix as opposed to setting up a great mix then sticking a limiter on it and just getting what you get. The mix is going to be more than just "louder", little things are likely to change and the less things are compressed or not compressed at all, the more they will change in relationship to the things that are compressed.

do some a/b's and see.

dave

[syrupcore]

Please dont take this the wrong way or anything but learn to mix.

isn't that why we're here?


Will

[drumsound]

Dave is right people. Mix into your buss compressor so that it doesn't:
A) screw up ypur mix
B) make you chase your tail for 2 hours after you patch the thing in.

[the riff]

I guess I should have specified that I am using the L1 plugin on the master fader in pro tools.

I think Dave might think I'm using the hardware version?

I actually think my mixes sound pretty darn good already, it was just a basic question. Didn't mean to get everyone riled up

I think EVERYONE could stand to learn a thing or two from time to time. My .02 anyway.

[Red Rockets Glare]

do some a/b's and see.

dave

God Damn. Now that was a seriously helpful post. I tried just what you wrote, and of course you have a great point.

[soundguy]

riff-

the theory should apply if you are using a hardware or software limiter, shouldnt matter much. try it and see.

dave