"closing the deal" with new clients

[bannerj]

I was reading through the other pages re: new clients and didn't want to high jack that thread.

My question is a bit more specific. Most of the people I am working with are in the studio the first time. As a result some of them have been kinda wishy washy. They talk alot about recording with me some time but then never follow through. I literally have a few people who have been talking about it for two years.

In other sales industries the salesman puts "the closer" on a customer. I am afraid of doing this with these guys because I really don't want to get someone in the studio who is not prepared.

At the same time I also want to help these guys get with it. I have been trying to think of ways to make the studio approachable...so that they will commit. One thing I did try was suggesting a five song EP recorded for free...and I take a percentage of sales until we reach a set amount. It would all be on honor. I know I could get screwed, but in the long run I can chalk it up to encouraging the artist and word of mouth. I am still at a point where I can fudge my prices to do this because I have a day job.

Anyway, are there things that you guys do to "close" the deal...or make the sell. I want to go after more work but I want it to be more than just business.

[joelpatterson]

Me: little kid. My dad: salesman. He brought home these tapes of Don Everett Winnebago (or somebody) giving these inspirational sales talks. First time I was introduced to the "closing" concept and I'm eight years old so impressionable.

The crux of the "close" was really a strong-arm tactic, and the core of it is you get to a point and you ASK if they want to buy. If they give an excuse, you parry their reasoning. And then you just sit there, and... (this was the best part of the whole series, and believe me it was tape after tape...) You sit there, and as he directed, you SHUT UP! (Big laugh from audience. Be interesting to know what mic they were using.) That's the tactic, but the whole thing depended on your customer really wanting to buy, just needing to be led there. If they didn't want to buy, really in their soul, you could go through the rigamarole uselessly.

My UPS guy, who plays guitar with his brother in clubs, talks about "doing something" every time he delivers something, and this has been going on for years, he's handed me THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of CDR's as we've had this conversation HUNDREDS OF TIMES, his great acoustic "Us And Them" or whatever...

And I just smile and shut up. It's hopeless with these people. You couldn't get them in your studio with a lasso and a chain hoist.

I'd say, set up the free session for a certain day, let anyone know they can sign up. You need people with at least a basic level of commitment. Showing up, say.

[cgarges]

Be friendly. Ask questions about their project. Find out what they want to do, don't tell them what they SHOULD do. Find out what sort of schedule works for them and try to accomodate that as best as you can. Make them feel like you're serving them, not telling them how they should proceed. Discuss a rate and see how that corresponds with what they'd like to accomplish. If you do all that and can actually get them in to see your facility and your facility looks good, it should be a cinch. I can't remember the last time I went through all that and still lost a gig.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[bannerj]

I am asking this in light of losing three projects last year. Mind you I have only been doing this for almost three years...and that I can't believe that people are paying me--but I have to as a way to keep them accountable for not wasting my time (busy like everybody....sixth grade teacher/newly married/I want to work on my own stuff).

I'm doing this out of my home project studio and all three people I lost were good friends more or less. I think it can be chalked up to a number of issues. I am just trying to figure out how to 1. be a friend who can be encouraging of their music--which is the only real reason why I want to do this anyway... and 2. safeguard myself from getting shafted.

I have since done work with three other bands and a spoken word project and everyone has been really happy and excited about what we came up with. So, my confidence has been restored.

Maybe my"people skills" question is more complicated than it would be if I was making a living at it. Then I could be more up front--even business like if I had to be. At this point I have learned to take their optimistic talk for a grain of salt, but I keep having this nagging suspicion that if I want to get more projects then I need to get out there and secure business. It is hard to just sit back, do the best work I can, trust that work and then wait for word of mouth to bring more people in. I have three new people who have been hinting around about wanting to work with me soon. I keep wondering if I should be more pro-active. Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

[cgarges]

Have these people gone to work with someone else? If not, I wouldn't worry about it. You can't want it more than they do. That's a tough thing to keep in mind sometimes.

I HAVE had people talk to me about doing projects that never come to fruition. That happens. Lately I've been very fortunate because everyone's pretty much come through. With people who ask a million questions over a long period of time, I just get shorter and shorter with my answers. There's only so much bending over backwards you can do. Sometimes I feel like saying, "Man, I cost this much per day, this is where we can record, this is what I've done--either do it or not," but I usually have to be more pleasant than that.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[joelpatterson]

You're right, it's a delicate situation. You've got to appreciate that these new people are probably excited/terrified about the prospect. They don't want to go through the whole thing and end up with a final product that proves decisively how limited their talents are.

It's like they're at the prom, and you're the pretty girl against the wall.

They're nervous, even tho you're dying to dance.

[bannerj]

Have these people gone to work with someone else?

Person A had already started working at another major studio in Dallas/Ft. Worth. He was having trouble communicating with that engineer/producer because that guy (also a friend) was busy doing bigger named projects. Person A gave me a deposit so that we could take what had been tracked at the big studio and continue it at my place. Then a few weeks before I was to begin working with Person A the bigger studio producer friend re-connected with Person A...thus Person A split on me. I was a sucker and even gave him the deposit back. They did a great job with that project. They type of work I would never have been able to do. Person A now has a band (the other project was solo electronica) that is starting to play out and I would really like to do a demo/EP for them.

Person B had already done five tracks with me a long time ago. He was the very first person that I had ever tracked drums for. I admit those were not some of my best sounds, but I understood that he knew we were both on a learning curve. He left to work with another engineer...my partner of sorts who I share gear with. My partner is in a band and travels so he charges more than twice what I do...and I am the one with a 1/2 8track! Person B has never given me a clear reason why he didn't want to continue working with me. I even asked him very candidly to please give me feedback all in the spirit of helping me learn how to work with people and to become a better engineer. He just responded that he didn't have a clear reason, but that its just the way he feeeeeels. I am not sure if I ever want to work with this guy again.

Person C has been talking to me about recording for a couple years. I engineered a record for his girlfriend. Finally he promised me some money up front and some more when the project was finished. We went out for dinner with his drummer. We talked dates. We talked recording methods. The next day I got an EMAIL! that said they were out because the bass player decided he didn't want to put up his share of the money. I tried to work the whole thing from a different angle: I will work for free and get paid a percentage from sales. No bite. I think they were just so frustrated with internal band issues. I have done one song for Person C (songwriter) since as a trial with another producer and drummer. He seemed happy. He called me recently to check my prices. I am not taking Person C's interest very seriously though even though I would like to work with him.

So there is the whole drama. I think the project I am just finishing up now will make me even more appealing to all of these guys--it sounds better than anything I have done so far and will be mixed by somebody in Seattle. So I feel like I am in a good position, but I am by nature a worrier.

What is even funnier is that all three of these people could possibly read this or at least other friends who know about these circumstances. I'm just trying to learn how to be competent in communication of expectations and also very very approachable at the same time. Because the whole reason why most of the folks want to record with me is because my house and prices are more relaxing than a studio.

[Red Rockets Glare]

Go see them play live a couple times. You'd be suprised how big of a deal it is when someone cares enough to come see you live.

[cgarges]

Go see them play live a couple times. You'd be suprised how big of a deal it is when someone cares enough to come see you live.

Yeah, that's a really good point. being out in the scene helps out anyway. If you actually play around town, even better. I've gotten the impression from a bunch of clients that the fact that I actually play in front of people (like they do) gives me some different sort of credibility. Another busy engineer aorund here has the same thing going on. Just being out places and having people know you or being able to out a face with you helps out. The old "out of site, out of mind" adage is true.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[cgarges]

Because the whole reason why most of the folks want to record with me is because my house and prices are more relaxing than a studio.

Think about this:

If one of the appealing things about your situation is your rate, then something else isn't working right if some clients have gone to work with people who are more expensive. When that starts happening, it should be apparent that the rate isn't as important as you think it is.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[bannerj]

then something else isn't working right if some clients have gone to work with people who are more expensive.

yeah...yeah...yeah...that's great. I've already thought about that. I was willing to learn exactly what that thing might be that wasn't working right...but the artist couldn't explain it.

I don't keep my prices low just to attract clients. I keep it low because I think the lower cost reflects what they are actually getting from me and my project studio. I do remember a great Tapeop interview with Aaron Espinoza where he talked about how he is glad to keep overhead low so that prices can stay low precisely for the point I was making above--that it is less stressful even for artists like Kim Deal.

Anyway, this is a rat's nest of an issue that might take me years to learn from. I was originally just wanting to know how to safely pursue wishy washy clients. Thanks.

[TapeOpLarry]

Figure that for every 5 people that express interest in your studio maybe 2 will come see the place and then maybe one of them will book time. Thsi is being optomistic. If I sat and thought about all the phone calls and studio tours that DIDN'T turn into work over the last decade I'd lose my mind!

Also be aware that soemtimes friends and people you know are not the best customers. They may not see you ans an engineer, as they know you weren't one 4 years ago, and have severe questions about your talent. But you have hopefully learned a ton over the last 4 years and the person who will reap that is some future client who you do a great job for and treat well.

Closing the deal? I think it's very much out of your hands. I've lost jobs due to band turmoil, money problems, insecurities, live shows, no live shows, drugs, alcohol, cars, etc. You can't control any of this crap.

Side note: Don't seem desperate! Offering free recording in exchange for CD sales (like who's gonna keep track of that anyway, and how many people sell enough self produced CDs to pay for a session?) is desperate. Don't do it. The worst sessions I ever had were ones where I cut my costs too low and lost interest because I had so many other things I needed to be doing and bills to pay and hee I was barely making any money and selling myself short. Don't do it for your own sake!

[bannerj]

Larry, these are some helpful thoughts. I am desperate though--desperate to do any recording with anybody. I learn so much by working with different and new artists.

I guess there is no closing the deal then, but what I have been offering people is a couple hours free. We track something--a guitar part and a quick vocal, or a few songs live for demos. I think of it as a way to get to know the artist better, to let them get the feel of my place, to hear something of what I can do for them. I talk them through the recording process, clarify what and when and how I can work for them. If I find that they need something I can't offer, I refer them to other friends and other studios. I've gotten two projects this way, but they came to me initially. I guess I wasn't chasing after them and seeming desperate.

Are you suggesting that I shouldn't do something like this? I should just charge from the get go?

[TapeOpLarry]

A couple of hours for free is way diferent than a whole EP or album session for free. Not a bad idea at all, as long as it's VERY CLEARLY understood when it becomes "not free". You can imagine why.

I just think the idea of hoping a band may pay you back from CD sales sounds very sketchy. I would never count on it.

Things I've done:

Let bands I know very well do albums on credit, they pay a set fee per month until it's paid off.

Barter. Record an album by someone who does construction (getting my garage turned into a practice room!) or painting (had my house painted inside/appliances in, etc.). Trade for this work. Bands don't have money (usually) and this will make them happy and you'll be happy that your work will translate to work around the house you don't have time for (because you're recording!). Plus, your housemates or significant other will gain a new appreciation for your work becasue the money you earn doesn't go right back into gear.

[chris harris]

If you want to build any kind of momentum in a city like OKC, then you HAVE TO get out and MAKE YOURSELF a part of the local music scene. Getting to know the bands and knowing which ones actually play out regularly is very important.

The kind of bands that simply TALK ABOUT playing and TALK ABOUT recording, aren't gonna be the bands that do you any good with word of mouth anyway. You've got to figure out a way to work with bands that other bands respect and will hear.

I recently put out a benefit compilation of local bands in OKC. You should go pick one up at Size Records or Rainbow Records. It's only 5 bucks and will give you a great introduction to 15 bands in the OKC area who really care about music and are getting out there and doing it. And, all of the money goes to the American Red Cross, so you can't lose. More info at: http://www.myspace.com/everybodyslocal

Good luck. Things didn't really start to snowball for me until I jumped into the local scene head-first and became friends with lots of cool bands who are really taking their music seriously.