Editing drum takes 101

apropos of nothing · Post by **apropos of nothing** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:26 am

Out of curiousity, are the other instruments already tracked, or are you working with just the drums at the moment.

Reason I ask is cuz I had a situation one time where I thought I would need to do some drum editing, but it was hearing the drums and the click. When we got the other instruments in there, I ate crow. The rushes and drags that were so apparent with just the drum tracks soloed next to the click were completely unnoticeable after the other instrumentalists had overdubbed their parts.

Probably not applicable, but thought I'd throw it out there.

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:25 pm

That's a good point. I never monitor the click in the control room. If I hear tempo issues without a reference it's too far off. If I only hear it with the click it's not bad enough to be a problem. I also like to not use the screen when I use the RADAR. I make my ears and brain tell me I need to fix something, not my eyes.

jca83 · Post by **jca83** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:13 pm

happens with everybody, session musicians and all.

and it normally happens after all tracking is finished, because then you can better tell what clashes with other instruments.

most of the instruments are tracked at the same time, though, along with some scratch vocals.

jca83 · Post by **jca83** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:58 am

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:13 pm

Are you using Pro Tools or a Ginsu Knife set?

MoreSpaceEcho · Post by **MoreSpaceEcho** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:37 pm

wow. how long did that take jca?

Knights Who Say Neve · Post by **Knights Who Say Neve** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:58 pm

Have musicians gotten worse, or have years of listening to drum machines changed our notions of "acceptable timing"?

jca83 · Post by **jca83** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:10 pm

drumsound wrote:Are you using Pro Tools or a Ginsu Knife set?

yes.

MoreSpaceEcho wrote:wow. how long did that take jca?

4 hours?

it's my opinion that with this whole digital age a lot of perfectionists and producer types have gone to the point of getting everything PERFECT. the guy i work for is a major perfectionist and if there's anything he doesn't like, he fixes it till he does.

joeysimms · Post by **joeysimms** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:38 pm

jca83 wrote: it's my opinion that with this whole digital age a lot of perfectionists and producer types have gone to the point of getting everything PERFECT. the guy i work for is a major perfectionist and if there's anything he doesn't like, he fixes it till he does.

'What's wrong with music today' for $500?

leigh · Post by **leigh** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:36 pm

[your Pro Tools session]

hahahahahahahahahaha.....

....

that's sick. But interesting to see how extreme it can get.

I'd understand doing this if it's a shitty drummer in a band, and the band or producer wants a usable drum take but doesn't want to replace the drummer. BUT why is this necessary with session drummers? Doesn't the producer pick a session drummer based on their ability and style working for a song?

Jca83, you wrote "i'll try to get the drum tracks just a millisecond or two off the loop, always behind, never before the beat, to give it some groove but keep it tight."

What are you doing, then, that's different than just shifting all the drums back a few milliseconds? Obviously something, or you wouldn't have had to slice at every hit. Do you play with the lag of snare, push that back farther than the kick? I'm not trying to give you a hard time - I genuinely want to understand what's gained by such detailed editing. Especially since you're doing this to session drummers who, presumably, don't need triage-style editing to salvage a disaster of a take.

Thanks,
Leigh

Mr PC · Post by **Mr PC** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:27 pm

Wow-

jca83, you are PLAYING the drums. What is the point of having one drummer over another? Yuck.

I'm glad you are getting work, don't misunderstand. You must have good judgment, musically. That is just screwed up, in my very very humble opinion.

PC

jca83 · Post by **jca83** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:19 pm

the reason you do every hit is that the drummer didn't play every hit exactly the same.. even session drummers are going to be all around the beat, even if it's on a much tighter scale.

this keeps the groove they made but makes it fall right where it's supposed to, just behind the beat...

keep in mind all of this we're talking is milliseconds. it's really about making everything perfect. i'm not sure what else to tell you other than that.

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:28 am

jca83 wrote:the reason you do every hit is that the drummer didn't play every hit exactly the same.. even session drummers are going to be all around the beat, even if it's on a much tighter scale.

Those unique things are what guys like Jim Keltner get paid for.

jca83 wrote:this keeps the groove they made but makes it fall right where it's supposed to, just behind the beat...

OK...

jca83 wrote:keep in mind all of this we're talking is milliseconds. it's really about making everything perfect. i'm not sure what else to tell you other than that.

Does you guy really hear this stuff or is he too fixated on the screen? I'm not being a smart ass here. I really want to know.

Mr PC · Post by **Mr PC** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:03 am

This is a theoretical question-

If everything is behind the beat, isn't the song just occurring slightly later in time? I know it sounds smartass, and is not intended to be at all.

I'm guessing the hi hat is on the beat......

jca83 · Post by **jca83** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:03 am

to answer the theoretical:

I'll try to say it another way:

even if a drummer is playing behind the beat, there are still going to be hits that are before the beat and way behind the beat. any human being is not going to be perfect. they might be close, but still. keep in mind a session musician may have heard this song once before, sits down and does three takes. their takes aren't going to be perfect; they're going to be great, but not perfect.

this is adjusting his/her hits to be where they are supposed to be. the loop/click is on the beat. i don't redo the performance of the drummer, as far as what hits when (like mr pc said about the hi-hat), i just slide in milliseconds each hit when he hit stuff. it just falls right in time behind the loop.

you may think this is crazy, but i CAN hear a difference. doing this i've heard differences in shifts of 1 to 2 milliseconds after lots and lots of training and practice. the biggest thing a couple milliseconds can do is affect the FEEL of the track, how everything is blending with everything else; how the track sits.

the biggest example of this i can think of is a layer of percussion tracks. different rhythms, shakers, tambourines, etc, and stuff clashes on its own, because of the different human rhythm errors in each take, but if you adjust it slightly, stuff falls right into place.

i wish i had some rough mixes pre-pocketing of some of this stuff.. the difference is quite audible. do you think this is crazy?

Message Board

Editing drum takes 101

Who is online