BLA upgrades for an old 828? Thoughts?

[DrummerMan]

Hi. I've seen this question come up in a couple different threads recently (in slightly different contexts), and I'm curious myself, so I thought I'd start a fresh one here dedicated to all y'alls' thoughts.

I'm still using, for my sole interface, the old MOTU 828 (the original kind) that I got 9-or-so years ago when I put together my first computer recording setup. It's served me well enough throughout the years. For a while, I had two running together, but am now back to one 'cuz 8 inputs is all I need these days.


My question is (before I start with my life story) should I get the BLA upgrade for it, and maybe the BLA external clock? or should I just put this dinosaur to rest and save up for something a few steps up, like the Fireface 800 that everybody seems to like?


So, here's the story...

I feel like my 828 is starting to get tired. I'm running Logic Studio 8 now and for the most part feel like it works fine, though sometimes it just decides to disengage itself from the computer in the middle of a session (the software all of a sudden doesn't recognize that there's an interface attached at all, and the interface itself has the lights flashing back and forth between 44.1 & 48, like it's trying to figure out what sample rate the session's in, except it never figures it out, and I have to shut it off and back on again to make it work again). (This happened before when I was using DP on a different computer as well, so I don't think it's a software or computer issue).

I also always felt like the sound conversion could be better, though my inferiority complex always told me that I shouldn't blame the machine and that I'm the one to blame for every sound problem. While this has led me to make great strides and efforts in improving my own techniques, which is a very good thing, I also seem to read alot about how these interfaces can (and could) really be improved upon.

OK, here's a late disclaimer: I don't know shit about A/D D/A conversion. Really... nothing past how to plug it it in and basically connect it and what sample and bit rates to use because that's what people tell me to use. With that in mind, I've never used an external clock (just what's in the 828), which also seems to be a big no-no for alot of folks in the know-know.

So I'm thinking of sending the old 828 to BLA for their upgrade, which is $295,
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html
and I thought that some of my glitch-y problems might be helped by using an external clock. Their's is $425
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/microclock.html

That's $720.

compared to a new Fireface 800 at $1699

Any thoughts? I'd especially love to hear from those of you who've had the BLA upgrades, of course...


I'm not dedicated to the RME, or Firewire necessarily, either. I can do a regular PCI interface or whatever. So if you've got any other suggestions in a price range between, that'd be super as well. I DO need 8 ins and outs, though. (In case you care: I'm running Logic Studio on a G5 tower with 1.25GHz dual core processor, currently using Tiger)


I'm not doing this right away. I'm just in the thinkin'-about-it phase, as I recently learned some bad news about the lack of a firewire audio card for a small mixing console, from a certain somewhat-controversial company, that I bought within the last year. I still really love the board, but the promise of a firewire card for it was one of the things that swayed me in it's direction in the end, and now I'm feeling a little dissapointed and trying to weigh my options.


I won't be disappointed if this thread turns into a general discussion about BLA upgrades in general, as, like I said before, this seems to be something of interest to people.

OK. Thanks,
Geoff

[space_ryerson]

I'm a fellow original 828 user, and I have had some similar problems. You may want to call Motu first. When I first got weird clock errors, Motu told me to un-rack it, and switch back and forth the 110/240 volt switch (I think on the side) a few times. That helped it for a while. Then, it got really crazy (lights dancing all of the time, never picking a clock rate, etc.), so I called Motu again. At that point, they said they would fix it or replace it for some low number (<$75), which they did. They ended up sending a brand new 828 to me. No clock problems in Logic; no problems at all. They may do the same for you, since this was only last year.

I haven't tried the BLA upgrade, so I can't comment on that; but for $295 seems like a lot for upgrading an old interface. I also haven't tried out the later interfaces yet, so I can't comment on how the quality stacks against the 828.

[Jeff White]

See what MOTU will do, as mentioned above.

I have an 828mk2 with the old analog/clock mod under the hood and I love the sound of it. Preamps sound great, A/D and D/A is much better post mod. I even A/B'd my BLA 828mk2 with a stock one that I had at the time and it was a huge difference.

Since the 828mk3 has been released, you should be able to pick up a used mk2 for cheap. The advantage over the 1st version of the 828 is better headroom and the CueMix software that comes with it. BLA will mod it no problem, though I would burn it in for a few weeks before sending it to them just to make sure that the mk2 that you get works great.

Jeff

[DrummerMan]

Thanks. I'll give MOTU a call and see what they say. I was just assuming that they wouldn't want to bother with such an old piece, but they always were, at least when I used to call for tech support with DP, very helpful.


I actually had a mkII as my second interface a number of years ago for a bit, but ended up trading it with a friend for another 1st gen. I was having problems when transferring tracks from my 16-track tape deck to the digital realm. Signals that were fine on tape were always too hot and clipped going into the computer, even with the gain turned down all the way on the mkII. The exact same signals would have no problem whatsoever on the original 828. I had another friend who was having the same issues as me. I wondering if raising the headroom on top could somehow have raised the threshhold on the bottom. Is that even possible?!?!

At some point, I'd talked to a Tech Support dude at MOTU, and he actually told me that the difference in sound between the original and the mkII were quite small, saying that the main advantages were CueMix and supporting higher Sample Rates. This coming from a MOTU employee!

Since I always went through a board (and still do) while tracking, and monitor with that, I don't need or use Cuemix, so I traded down for my second trusty old 828, with simple knobs on the front (which gives me some sort of tactile, roughing-it-like pleasure, weird, right?, coming from a firewire audio interface? )


Anyway, in terms of the external clock. Is there a simple way to explain what the advantages are in having an external clock?

Also has anybody had experience with the BLA one?

[darjama]

I was having similar problems on my original motu828, and did the BLA mod. It didn't help, the unit was still flaky. Though it sounded great when it did work. I doubt Motu would look at it now since it's modded.

Got an RME Multiface, and am much happier with it overall. Ultra-low latency and rock solid stability.

I don't think an external clock by itself will help too much. I'd spend a bit more and get an a/d converter, which will have better clock and converters.

Despite what the Motu rep told you, there are significant differences between the original and the mkii. Different converter chips (and clock too I think) are used.

[Jeff White]

I believe that I have the older version of the BLA microclock inside of my 828mk2, since the mod that they did back in 2005/2006 was a full analog path replacement, two BLA designed mic preamps, and a tweaked/replaced/modified clock. All I can say is that the modified 828mk2 sounds much better than stock, and most of the tests that I did when I had the modified and stock 828mk2 interfaces were involving D/A conversion on playback of older sessions. I could hear a difference in clarity and more space in the mixes. Reverb was really clear and not muddy. Clarity. Had I tracked from the ground up I am sure that the differences would be even more well defined. I simply swapped out interfaces from within DP and had friends over for a blind taste test.

How many tracks do you record at a time? The reason why I am asking is because I sold my stock 828mk2 for an Apogee Duet last fall and couldn't be happier. I use the Duet 95% of the time these days since I have been doing nothing but mixing and I prefer its sound slightly over the BLA 828mk2 (though the BLA mod sounds really great!). Also, having a large dial for volume control on the desktop is nice as well. Unless I am tracking drums or an ensemble I am going to use the Duet. So I'm not sure what your work flow is, but it you are simply tracking one or two instruments simultaneously, are on Mac OSX, and have $495 to spare, I'd invest in a Duet as an upgrade. It sounds great and is rock solid over here on OS 10.4.11 on both my Powerbook and Dual G5.

If you need extra channels of i/o I'd suggest the FireFace 400, or a Metric Halo interface. You may also want to check out the new 828mk3, as the clock in there is supposed to be a real step up.

Jeff

[DrummerMan]

Yeah, I looked at the duet, as something to take with my laptop when I'm doing overdubs away from the studio...

but, at home...

I need 8 ins and outs for the most part. I multitrack track drums regularly. I also use my good ol' Tascam 388 for basics, then dump to Logic. Lastly, I like to do final mixes back through the board, at least separated into busses/stems, so that I can use some of my outboard gear in the final process.



In terms of the RME Multiface, is it basically a NON-firewire version of the Fireface?
It's seems a little cheaper (in price).

What're peoples thoughts on using PCI intsead of Firewire?

[DrummerMan]

BTW. Thanks, all of you, for your thoughts so far!

[LeedyGuy]

Yeah I know this post is a year old, but I'm in the same boat kinda!

Here's the deal though: you can't use that clock with the 828 I don't think...

http://www.d2records.com/828/rear2.jpg

See? No BNC hookups.

I know it has been a year, but what did you go with?

[calaverasgrandes]

fwiw when I was having ENDLESS problems with my 828, flashing lights etc, I fixed it by using a better firewire cable.
mt BLA modded 828MKII sounds awesome. I cant believe I was able to mix on the constrained, midrangey box I had pre-mod.
They did send it back with mic pre #1 making spurious noise. I returned it and they banged on it for a month. It now makes less spurious noise on pre #1 now. But not a big deal. Previously I hated those pres. Now I have one good pre in there where before I had none.
They had a deal for a while for the analog section mod plus the external clock. It was a great deal but I wasnt working enough to pay for it. Oh well. Spilt milk.
About the RCA vs BNC deal, they should all be 75ohm, just get an adapter and use the SPDIF jacks to sync from.

[christopher dwyer]

Maybe get an Apogee Ensemble? You get 4 great Preamps and have the ability to hook up 4 more. Since your using Logic it should be the perfect fit.
Or perhaps a Duet.
I have heard both and they are outstanding.

[Jeff White]

I totally agree about the Duet, really nice-sounding box. I have one, too. As good as the BLA 828mk2, just less channels. Is the Ensemble the same of better converters? Isn't it like $2000?

Anything that sounds as good as my modified 828mk2 is a good investment. I would seriously think about how many channels you need, possible future expansion (ADAT optical), and simply realize that sound quality and functional drivers are the number one and two most important characters of any interface. After drivers (that will be transparent and flawless with my setup), I look for is the best-sounding channels into Digital Performer that I can afford. And after using a BLA modified interface for 2 1/2 years, I'm still totally happy.

Jeff

[christopher dwyer]

Is the Ensemble the same of better converters? Isn't it like $2000?

The Emsemble has the same converters and pre's as the Duet, the Ensemble just gives you more options (4 pre's and 4 more inouts for external mic pre's).
Perhaps just upgrade to BLA and get a Duet?

[Jeff White]

Honestly, instead of a Duet, I would look to upgrading via BLA (I personally would do the MK2 version but if you like the original... ), and instead of the Duet or the Microclock, you could always just grab a used Mini-Me to clock S/PDIF. This will sound great.

Another option would be to check out the Echo firewire interfaces, as they are getting some rave reviews around here and are really reasonably priced. http://www.echoaudio.com/Products/FireWire/

Check out this thread for more info: http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... light=echo

You could still get a clock to upgrade sound (if needed!) and either run S/PDIF or Wordclock. The only downside is the lack of ADAT i/o, however there are priced great and if you have the outboard you can most likely create and Aggregate Device and chain two together for Logic. I would contact Echo about the specifics regarding Aggregate Device and the Audiofires.

This way you'll have an up-to-date interface that sounds great out of the box for $500 to $600.

Jeff

[calaverasgrandes]

I just want to point out that not all apogee units are created equal. The more affordable models do not have the same clocking as the AD16/Big Ben.
This includes the Rosetta models as well.
The Duet is mostly unbalanced and -10 dbv.

I was kind of disappointed in their discontinuing of the mini-me. It wasnt perfect, but it fulfilled a market niche that nothing they offer now does. Not even the Duet.
But yeah I would put my 828MKII up against any apogee product without the C777.