are we all a bunch of snobs?

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curtiswyant
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are we all a bunch of snobs?

Post by curtiswyant » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:43 pm

:D

I struggle with doing what I think is best versus doing what I think should be best. Does anyone besides us care what we use to record an album? Some kid in his basement with a four track can still change the world. I guess I'm trying to say...focus on what's important. It's all about the song.

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Post by JGriffin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:08 pm

Sure it's all about the song but this place is about how best to capture that song in a form that allows others to experience it the way it's meant to be experienced. And that can take a certain degree of analysis; i.e. this guitar tone isn't serving the song, is there a mic or a different amp or some other technique that I could use to bring the guitar in the right place to serve the song?

And yeah, to a certain extent we're snobs, but we're also trying to some extent to be the instrument through which art is brought into the world, and that means we have technical stuff to think about while the artist is over in the corner being arty. And sometimes the technician and the artist are in the same body, sure. And sometimes the technical stuff becomes part of the art. But just like Leonardo likely had more than just one brush available to him, and would choose which one to use depending on what he wanted to accomplish, so too do we have myriad tools available to us and we need to be able to make informed decisions about which to use at a given time.

As for what you think is best vs. what should be best? I assume you mean that what should be best is the generally accepted wisdom or what some presumably more experienced guy said on a website or in a recording magazine? That guy's not in the room with you. Try what should be best, try what you think is best and pick the one that sounds better.
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Re: are we all a bunch of snobs?

Post by T-rex » Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:49 pm

Things I learned at Gearslutz while the Tape Op board was down:

* Unless you have Pro-tools HD with Prism AD/DA convertors or 2" 16 track analog, you're really just wasting your time.

Things I learned when the Tape Op board came back up:
curtiswyant wrote::D

Some kid in his basement with a four track can still change the world.
Don't get me wrong, I like Gearslutz too and I am not bashing it at all. But the time I spent reading that board got me into this really weird head space where I was obsessed with, well - gear. And that can be a good thing, but only when it's tempered by great music to use it on. I am really glad Tape Op is back up, I didn't like the snob aspect at all and I can say for a fact it didn't make me any better of an engineer.

I have heard some terrible songs that have been recorded pristinely, but I can't say as I ever remember hearing a fabulous song where bad engineering made me not want to hear it again.
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Post by Professor » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:15 pm

You may indeed think that the square wheel you have painstakingly chiseled in your basement is exactly the right way of doing things, while some other voice in your life has said that you should use a round wheel if you want it to roll, and only use those square things for sitting still.
I'm guessing that if you have made it as far as this or other message boards, then you want to know more about recording. Believe it or not, this particular vocation has been around for 129 years, and there have been lots of folks who have tried lots of ideas, suffered lots of failures, and combined artistry, science, experience and good ol' fashioned perseverence to arrive at the concepts, the teaching and the tools which are made available to you now.
Of course that doesn't mean that you should stop experimenting - indeed, none of us should ever do that. But while you are experimenting, it is helpful to know if someone has already crossed that path before, perhaps run into that particular wall in the maze, then back-tracked to find a path out of the darkness.
And don't mistake this as a diatribe on the necessity of expensive gear. There are plenty of great engineers who have used far lesser equipment than might be in your basement to make wonderful recordings. But accept some of the knowledge and wisdom of those who have come before and help to advance the collective knowledge rather than simply stagnating the process by reinventing the wheel over and over again.

If it is your goal to be an engineer and to serve the artists and the music that is brought to you, then you should make your best effort to apply this science in the service of the art. It's one thing to do what you think is right, but it quite another to outwardly condemn what you've heard should be right, without having some sort of reasonable concept of why what you think would be superior. Will you really be serving the art and artist if you ignore the failures of your predecessors and simply assume the laws of physics or the shortcomings of technology will somehow cease to matter because it's you doing it this time?
Or, if it is your goal to create the art and to record your own efforts in your home then just the same, are you serving your art by spending less time creating that art in favor of spending more time trying to reinvent the science of recording.

Of course you CAN do it, and I don't want to sound like old Mr. Sear here and tell you this is some kind of magical, mystical forbidden knowledge exclusive to folks who own the oldest studios in NYC. I don't care if you are recording in a million dollar studio or a card board box. I don't care if you are using the cheapest Chinese-built gear you bought from the local thrift store or the most expensive and advanced equipment on the planet. That song on that 4-track could very well change the world, but it won't get airplay if the phase is screwed up, and people won't hear the message if the lyrics are drowned out by loud guitars, and the kids won't dance to it if the bass is flabby and weak, and those are ALL things that lots of engineers have screwed up before, fixed, and passed down to you as the recommendations of how you "should" try to record.

Are you serving the art?

-Jeremy

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Post by brakeshop » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:13 pm

Whenever I get to bogged down in gear lust or spend too much time getting A sound, I always try to remember that records more or less started as a souvenir from a performance. Music is a performance art, not something static like a painting or a recording. A great recording is a great recording, but there is a lot more going on when you see a band live. I love lots of records with tons of studio trickery, but sometimes it feels like the engineer, producer or whoever is taking the paintbrush out of the real artist's hand. Maybe that's why there are so many homerecorders.

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Post by Cyan421 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:43 pm

brakeshop wrote: I love lots of records with tons of studio trickery, but sometimes it feels like the engineer, producer or whoever is taking the paintbrush out of the real artist's hand. Maybe that's why there are so many homerecorders.

I kind of think thats its the producer or engineer who by the very act of removing said paintbrush from the artists hands makes the record great. Its the painter not the paint brush that makes the real difference anyway. And thats why home recordings are home recordings and studio recordings are studio recordings.

Im sure just as many producers screw up albums, but I don't think they are to blame.

What is this thread about anyway.........
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Post by Professor » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:22 am

Wow, then it went in a different direction.

I tend to here this lament a lot from bands who are worried about sounding like they do live, or my favorite is when performers say, "why would I do that? I can't perform it that way live."
That's a perfectly legitimate idea if you are making a demo to get gigs, or you want to simply use recording as a documentary tool to, well, document a performance. After all, music notation started as a method of "recording" improvised music or passing music along through something other than oral tradition. Same with writing, it is only here for recording history, not for considering philosophy, or inventing stories, or becoming an art form in its own right. And painting is for documenting visual reality of the natural world around us, or is that the role of photography, or film, or all three?
Recording does not somehow demean or devalue the live performance by not slavishly recreating it. Rather, the recording becomes a work of art unto itself separate from the artists, yet created by them. Different from their live performance, to be sure, and yet forged from the same metal.

Beethoven didn't simply jot down the improvisations of his local garage-symphony. He wrote out an original work of art on the recording medium of his day - paper. The symphony that plays the work must work slavishly to provide a faithful reproduction of the RECORDING just like a nice hi-fi system would today.
And today, artists hole themselves up in studios to create their grand masterworks and record them to the medium of their day - the record. Some will go out and perform the works live to share them with the world and encourage people to purchase the recordings, while others will simply release their recordings to the world without ever stepping on stage.
And some people will argue that the role of the recording engineer or producer is that of a documentarian. Sometimes it is, but only if the recording isn't intended to stand on its own as a work of art.

-Jeremy

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Post by Rigsby » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:53 am

This board for me is all about talking about getting the sound you want or discussing sounds you might like to achieve, some of that's dependent on gear, but it's not the be-all and end all. Gear=tools=options.
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Post by surf's up » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:44 am

I very much support the concept that recordings are a unique art form unto themselves. Particularly with the technology available today for overdubbing and effects, there is no reason not to try to achieve the most artistically advanced and aesthetically pleasing recording. Whether this means a raw, unpolished performance or an elaborate and detailed production depends on the inspiration of the artists. This can lead to some rather esoteric and personal decisions in some cases, but I think the question should always be asked: "Am I doing this just because it's different, or because it's different and it enhances the recording in a way that more conventional methods could not?"

As to the 'gearslut' mentality, I also visited that site from time to time during the shutdown, and it does have some decent threads, but I do like it better here. I think the discussions here, particularly from the more experienced engineers, are helpful and enlightening for the hobbyists like me. But I also love reading the often inventive solutions and approaches from those closer to my situation. I probably owe 50% or more of my (still meager) skills to knowledge and concepts I learned from this board.

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Post by auralman » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:07 am

Any reason you decided that Walter Sear deserved to be picked on? Have you ever worked with the man? Was he not forthcoming with information?

I happen to know him particularly well, and anyone who does knows that getting him to STOP telling you information about recording is the hard thing. No mystical sh*t about it.

To dump some turd on this thread, yes, we're snobs. And nerds. But only to each other. MOST of us have the common sense not to talk about records, techniques, and gear with anyone else beyond the recording community, as no one else cares remotely as much as we do. I don't feel outcast by that - everyone has something in their life that's not "mainstream" that they enjoy a hell of a lot but don't share at cocktail parties.
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Post by chris harris » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:37 am

auralman wrote:Any reason you decided that Walter Sear deserved to be picked on? Have you ever worked with the man? Was he not forthcoming with information?

I happen to know him particularly well, and anyone who does knows that getting him to STOP telling you information about recording is the hard thing. No mystical sh*t about it.
that's fine and good... but, you should get used to it. to many of those who do not know the man, he seems to be intent on rewriting his legacy. he seems more interested these days in being known for his bitter curmudgeon manifestos than for his recording skills.

he may be great and encouraging to those who know him. but, he comes off very negative and discouraging in his writings.

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Post by tubejay » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:32 am

auralman wrote: MOST of us have the common sense not to talk about records, techniques, and gear with anyone else beyond the recording community, as no one else cares remotely as much as we do. I don't feel outcast by that - everyone has something in their life that's not "mainstream" that they enjoy a hell of a lot but don't share at cocktail parties.
So THAT'S why nobody wants to hang out with me! :lol:

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Post by Reuben » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:54 am

Of course we're too focused on gear, but it's the easy part to talk about. And the part that exists outside of the job. And the stuff looks cool.

But I feel I have acheived a good level of maturity cause the big stuff on my wishlist is:

1) 6 more feet of ceiling.

2) better heating and cooling systems

3) more clients
Reuben Radding
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Re: are we all a bunch of snobs?

Post by daede » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:38 am

T-rex wrote:Things I learned at Gearslutz while the Tape Op board was down:

* Unless you have Pro-tools HD with Prism AD/DA convertors or 2" 16 track analog, you're really just wasting your time.

Things I learned when the Tape Op board came back up:
curtiswyant wrote::D

Some kid in his basement with a four track can still change the world.
Don't get me wrong, I like Gearslutz too and I am not bashing it at all. But the time I spent reading that board got me into this really weird head space where I was obsessed with, well - gear. And that can be a good thing, but only when it's tempered by great music to use it on. I am really glad Tape Op is back up, I didn't like the snob aspect at all and I can say for a fact it didn't make me any better of an engineer.

I have heard some terrible songs that have been recorded pristinely, but I can't say as I ever remember hearing a fabulous song where bad engineering made me not want to hear it again.
Bingo.
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I'm Painting Again
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Post by I'm Painting Again » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:36 am

for the relationship of band and engineer and or producer to work you have to be on the same page philosophically..myself I admire bands that want to have maximum paintbrush..they want the document..thats awesome imo..then again I like the whole producer pov and studio trickery, etc.. and that works with bands that are into it..you have to cater to their philosophy if you want a healthy relationship..even in situations when artist and production staff are in conflict can produce good results too..that conflict comes through and something new and different blossoms out of that stuff from time to time..just like some band's internal conflicts come out in the music..thats entertaining to us..
Last edited by I'm Painting Again on Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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