What would be the goal in recording guitar this way?

[aeijtzsche]

These pictures are from the same sessions:






All the amps seem to be mic-ed thrice, two 57s on one speaker, and some little condenser? on another speaker.

I'm fairly sure there wasn't any subtle stereo stuff on this record, just two rhythm guitars, one panned hard left the other hard right.

Just wondering if anybody is familiar with what the engineer was trying to accomplish with this particular setup.

[thethingwiththestuff]

one 57 on axis
one 57 off axis
one condensor/ribbon

different flavors to choose from.

[aeijtzsche]

That makes sense to me. It's just a setup I've not seen elsewhere, and the fact that it was religiously followed on every amp seemed kind of suspiciously "formulaic" or something.

[aeijtzsche]

Anybody think they can identify the little mic on the amps in the bottom picture that aren't 57s? Just for fun?

[Rivers]

From afar they look like Royer 121's.

[soundguy]

just because you set up a mic doesnt mean you use it, thats real important to remember when you look at pictures like that. Just because you use a mic doesnt mean you use it %100 either. I have pictures from a session that have 5 or 6 mics on a cab and only one went to tape. When you are getting tones, often its faster to setup mic stand forest in front of a cab and then simply open a fader and a/b six mics rather than running in and out setting up a new mic every time you want to hear something different. They could have been using one, two or threee mics together in some combination as well as mics further back in the room which you dont see. Slightly more or at least as relevant as the mic in front of the cab is what kind of speakers are in the cabs, what acoustic treatment is inside the cabs and wether the backs are on the cabs or not.

dave

[Cyan421]

Here's a set up I have gotten good results from on loud heavy rock guitars (distortion on Mesa's and Marshall's)

Guitar A
Condenser
Dynamic

Guitar B
Condeser
Dynamic

I Like to put each pair of mic's in an XY pattern just to get an even "of axis fill". I won't use the mic's in stereo the way they are set up on the guitar cab. I might put both condenser's panned all the way out and the dynamics at 9 and 3 o'clock respectively, so each guitar is at the same place in the stereo spectrum (sort of mirrored), or vice versa, dynamics all the way out, condensers at 9 and 3. This could be a possible explain as to why this engineer chose to use the same set up on each amp.

[sleep over jack]

57 cone
57 coil
condenser

blend to taste

makes sense to me?

[epic problem]

Any chance these pictures are from a Weezer session? I feel like I've seen these before.

[aeijtzsche]

Weezer, the green album, correct.

[Professor]

Here's a setup I did for a recent session:


The band brought in a friend to act as 'producer' and eventually as the mixing engineer. He wasn't too decisive about mic choice or placement for most of the stuff. He brought along a D-112 and spent quite a bit of time positioning it inside the kick, but simply asked for any old LDC pair in XY for overheads. With the guitar amp he kinda asked, 'so a 57 would be kinda standard, right?' and then asked about maybe setting up two of them in XY. I gave him the two and let him have at it which accounts for the pair on the left.
Even though (or perhaps even more because) I didn't have to worry about mixing the project, I wanted to make sure that there were lots of sonic options available. Typically for my own sake, I will place a dynamic, a condenser, either a ribbon or PZM depending on the amp sound, and a DI on the guitar so that I have some production options in mixdown like a brighter tone at a bridge or chorus, more distant tone in an intro, or the ability reamp if needed - whatever might come up. So just to make sure that I wouldn't get a call asking to re-track, or have some engineer/producer/friend off somewhere bemoaning how I didn't get good tones to mix, I went ahead and ran some extra mics. On the right you'll see an MD-421mkII time aligned with a TLM-103 about 12" off the grill. On the left, below the red patch cord and probably too hard to see, is a passive DI box, just a little Groove Tubes PDI. On the door that is not in the picture, facing the amp and about 3.5' back is an MBHO 648PZ boundary mic with a linear omni capsule taped to the door glass at about belly height. Since the session was punk rock, and I knew the guys liked stupid bright guitar tones, I opted for the PZM over the ribbon and went omni to minimize any phasing weirdness.

So there's an example of why someone might put up several mics. Occasionally in mix down I might choose to use multiple mics, like the dynamic and condenser spread in stereo (not for for movement but for frequency spread) with a boundary mic brought up for some room/reverby sound. Though I have to be careful with the panning because the condenser electronics will respond quicker than the heavier diaphragm in the dynamic and can steer the image a little more heavily in that direction. Mostly though, the idea is to be able to grab different tones at different points in a song without EQ and other tools.
And of course if everything is totally whacked then I can always take the DI and reamp the thing.

-Jeremy

[Professor]

Oh yeah, and the room is roughly 6x6, maybe 6x7, with no parallel walls, and it acts as the sound lock between the live room, control room and hallway, and I recently added some bass traps and diffusion around the top half of the room.
The guitarist was in the big room with his cable taped under the door, and yes the amp is up off the ground on two Auralex Grammas.

-J

[soundguy]

jeremy-

can you detect any difference between the gammas and a milk crate? Have you ever compared? Ive always wondered about those things.

dave

[Professor]

sorry dave, no milk crates around the place so I can't say I've ever AB'ed them.
I think the Gramma is probably more stable, and it can also act as kind of a shockmount for a mic stand, and it won't rattle or buzz from the amp sound. In this case I put the amp up on the platform to decouple from the floor and keep the LF vibrations from hitting the non-shockmounted mics, and to keep the LF from translating through to the other rooms (though RBDG did a good job there).
I don't tend to use the Gramma to effect the tone of the amp, though my bass player loves it and insists on bringing it along to gigs to hold up his Genz-Benz dual 10" & GBE-600w head.

This is probably one of those spots where I can say that I really don't have the desire to really subjectively compare the sound of the direct couple to the floor (which I would tend to prefer if just listening) vs. the Gramma vs. a milk crate vs. a chair, or whatever. I just trust in the concept and move along. I know that I like playing my drums on top of the Auralex Hoverdeck, especially without a carpet, though they do tend to slide around without one. Oh, and it's also kind useful for upright bass.
With monitor and hi-fi speakers, I know that I prefer the sound of the cabinet directly coupled to a very dense support as it seems to tighten and focus the lower mids - probably because it dampens the cabinet and allows the drivers to move with less resistance. But it I can't be on a very dense surface, or I don't want to translate vibrations into a surface, then I want isolation.

If it's a question of cost, they sell the thing in the "ISO Producer's Pack" along with MoPads and the 'Aural Expanders', the little foam bits for around microphones. The whole kit lists for $99 and I think it discounted (at least for me) to around $60. At that price, I figure even if it's equivalent to a milk crate, at least it looks professional enough to go with the rest of the studio.
(not implying that you're cheap or anything, but just figuring that's a typical hesitation around any kind of acoustics for most of the home studio guys.)

-Jeremy

[nacho459]

So that's how you get a Rock Pro through a Crate cab to sound good!