What happened to "getting it right the first time"

[chris harris]

I like great records better than great live performances. I don't care how many takes it took them to make the record great.

I like live music too.. but, I listen to music ALL THE TIME. not just the 3 hours per night that bands are playing my favorite venue.

[joel hamilton]

"what ever happened to getting it right the fist time?"


When was that?

[drumsound]

"what ever happened to getting it right the fist time?"


When was that?

Yea really.


Just plain getting it right on the other hand...

[joel hamilton]

"what ever happened to getting it right the fist time?"


When was that?

Yea really.


Just plain getting it right on the other hand...

Ya know?

Like almost everything I have ever worked on, or read about, or talked with people about...

It was like ".... then leadbelly got the take we all hear today as 'black betty'...."
or "we were at muscle shoals and the stones had been messing around with this riff for 285 hours, then then on take 976 they really NAILED 'brown sugar'...."

Or when Teo Macero told me to my face that he had "the guys in lab coats at Capitol" make him some kind of "echo box" because his edits were so "shitty" on bitches brew, he really wanted something to make the finished edits sound "smeared and more artistic."...

Etc...Etc...Etc....

Food for thought.

[thearnicasync]

"what ever happened to getting it right the fist time?"


When was that?

classic!

[curtiswyant]

"what ever happened to getting it right the fist time?"


When was that?

Live to 2 track?

[gregnrom]

"what ever happened to getting it right the fist time?"


When was that?

Live to 2 track?

That is the most satisfying work to do, especially after a long session.

[soundguy]

It's funny that this is even a discussion. Every single person commenting on this has comp'd vocals a billion times. It is EXACTLY the same as cutting and pasting a performance. Period.

If you haven't comp'd vocals, you have punched in. It's the EXACT same thing, and I defy anyone to explain to me how it is different.

are you kidding?

the whole "advantage" of nonlinear recording is the ability to not commit to anything, ever. When you can record three hundred takes, there's absolutely no pressure to get it right. none. No pressure to get it right the first time, no pressure to get it right the three hundreth time.

With linear systems, you have finite space and worse, when you are punching in, now not only does the performer have to perfectly get it right, but there is operator error to account for with the head gap on the punch out in tight spaces. The degree of anxiety present in the punch out will vary from machine to machine, each is different. the tension, anxiety and critical nature of the vibe in the air that is present on a punch in with a linear system has positively no business being present when going through the identical process on a non linear system. As a result, you get, at the very least, the foundation for completely and totally different performances. Some people respond to that pressure in a horrible self destructive way and some people cant perform to their best unless they are in its presence. This isnt a which one's better, but they sure as shit are totally different arenas. I'd let a 15 year old punch in just about anything on a non linear system, but am seeking out someone with a lot of time on a given deck to punch critical material.

There is at least one person on posting on this board who has never comped vocal performances.

dave

Everything you mentioned is frankly a bunch of subjective bullshit Dave. You are smarter than that. How about you explain to me what is different between 5 vocal takes cut to tape that are later comp'd and 5 vocal takes that are comp'd via Pro Tools and later comp'd? You know EXACTLY what I am saying. Once you make the decison to comp at all, you have crossed the line from "purist".

I know exactly what you are saying and I think you've exactly missed my point. There is no difference between cutting 5 takes to tape and comping versus cutting 5 takes to pro tools and later comping. Your statement suggested that comp'ing and punching in were the same thing and in a classroom that may appear to be the case but in practice the two activities couldnt have anything less to do with each other. When you comp something, you record a bunch of shit, edit all the nice parts and move on. You can do this on a tape machine or a non-linear system, whatever. Punching in on a tape deck speifically, however, can be ultra high stakes anxiety with a tight out point or in some cases physically not possible to do, at all. You dont have that risk with comping. When a vocalist knows they have ONE chance to nail the overdub because the punch out WILL DEFINITELY erase the attack of the point following the out, things get fucking tense.

There's nothing subjective about head gaps and punch outs, its just physics. If you want to think its subjective, think whatever you want. Perhaps you need to hear the crushing silence of a band sitting there listening to the playback to see you erased something that you shouldnt have for this to be relevant. For me, thats the most exciting part about making records (this is subjective) and its something that simply does not exist in any way shape or form on a non linear system (that is fact).

there's a whole generation of folks who think overdubbing at all isnt "purist" let alone comping.

dave

[junkyardtodd]

a bunch of frank black's solo stuff is live to 2 track, and it's really good. come to think of it, my old bands first widely distributed demo was all live to 2 track. the guy (dave knight) who recorded it thought it was a big deal, and we all agreed, but nobody outside the band seemed to care.

Hmmmm......

[joel hamilton]

a bunch of frank black's solo stuff is live to 2 track, and it's really good. come to think of it, my old bands first widely distributed demo was all live to 2 track. the guy (dave knight) who recorded it thought it was a big deal, and we all agreed, but nobody outside the band seemed to care.

Hmmmm......

I also recorded some Frank Black stuff, all live, and nobody cares that it was live, and it most certainly was NOT one take....

[joeysimms]

"what ever happened to getting it right the fist time?"


When was that?

Yea really.


Just plain getting it right on the other hand...

Ya know?

Like almost everything I have ever worked on, or read about, or talked with people about...

It was like ".... then leadbelly got the take we all hear today as 'black betty'...."

Right - he got the take. It wasn't 2 or 3 separate takes with 5 comped vocals all patched together. He played and sang it til he got the one.

or "we were at muscle shoals and the stones had been messing around with this riff for 285 hours, then then on take 976 they really NAILED 'brown sugar'...."

Right - in the Stones' case, they're writing and practicing in the studio until something happens. Very few bands can afford that luxury so they must sort out something of an arrangement before they come in, and be adept enough to change it on the fly if need be.

Or when Teo Macero told me to my face that he had "the guys in lab coats at Capitol" make him some kind of "echo box" because his edits were so "shitty" on bitches brew, he really wanted something to make the finished edits sound "smeared and more artistic."...

Etc...Etc...Etc....

Right - nobody's saying boo about that because it turned out so well. That's a lot different than if Ted was cutting and comping everyone's individual performances, and nudging things here and there, pitch correcting notes that went a bit sharp or flat, and beat detectiving the drums.

[joel hamilton]

The thread says "getting it right the first time."

Or maybe I, too am getting the autotune rant, the fucking punch in rant, and the ethics rant, and the rant about ranting.

I better start taking notes on who, what where and why I am ranting so much in this forum.

[GrimmBrotherScott]

I know exactly what you are saying and I think you've exactly missed my point...

dave

Ah, ok I see. I did miss it. My apologies. I agree, punching to tape is a tough gig. For both the engineer and musician.

Joel, I DID notice that those Frank Black and the Catholics were cut live to two track and I thought it was cool as hell.

s

[joeysimms]

The thread says "getting it right the first time."

Or maybe I, too am getting the autotune rant, the fucking punch in rant, and the ethics rant, and the rant about ranting.

I better start taking notes on who, what where and why I am ranting so much in this forum.

All I hear while recording my band is "we'll overdub it later" or "copy it from another place in the song"! You'd think with home recording that you would have an infinite amount of time to do perfect takes but it seems to be doing the opposite...

There's the first post of the thread. I thought the poster was commenting on laziness and apathy leading to a piss-poor result, aided and abetted by fix-it tools.

[drumsound]

I believe its the "first time" part that Joel and I are 'questioning.' I like the player nad the engineer to get it right. I realize that it will take many attempts to get it right.