Outdated Techniques

[drumsound]

--snip--

And again, if you sing the words "girl," "love," and "baby" in a song, you're guaranteed platinum - unless the line is "I love to poop on my baby girl." In which case you're probably R. Kelly and have twenty-one other identical songs lined up.

You killing me here!

[stinkpot]

wow, you go out of town for a few days...

sorry, i'm really tired. this looks like fun, back later.

[Brian]

I think that there are many cases (often illustrated on these and other forums) where it's not so much an indicator of a lack of understanding of modern techniques as an outright refusal to even consider acquiring those skills. Most times, it seems that many of these engineers feel some kind of obligation to preserve musicianship. I think that this is just as bad.

Your decisions affect more people than your self. cheap talenmt due to really low standards of excellence lower recording funds. I.E. they don't have top pay the kind of money to record talent that supports a thriving community of artists when the labels can get half talent cheaper and enhance it artificially. Like a boob job.

If you get into a session with a band that can't pull it off without the use of edits/autotune/comps/etc, and you can't help them to make a good record anyway (whether it's your "ethics" or lack of skills or lack of gear), then it's your fault for getting into a session with them in the first place. I generally know the level of musicianship of artists I'm dealing with before they load in and warm up.

If you just can't stand dealing with less than brilliant musicianship, turn down the session and let them find someone who can help them make a good record. Don't try to "teach 'em a lesson" about practice and musicianship through a long, tense session.

Right on!, Well said!

I'm not suggesting that you don't try to get the best performance you can out of a client. But, sending them home with a recording that they can be proud of and a fun, rewarding experience is what I do for a living. Nobody pays me to be the guardian of musicianship.

Too bad you don't feel that way

Hell, I get frustrated when a client wants to "take it from the top" nineteen times, instead of punching in a couple of times and being done with it. It's as if some musicians believe that there's some kind of old-school glory in playing it all the way through in "one take" even if it takes nineteen trys to do it in "one take".

OK, you're stretching oit antagonisticly here.

[Brian]

It seems like that's crossing a line. Intuitively it seems differant, but I am not sure that I can logically say why it's wrong.

Next????


(and hell yeah, my kid is the coolest ever. if she ever makes records, I guarantee they will be GREAT records!)

It's wrong because it is rationalized decision making not a "true choice". People only rationalize their decisions when they know damn well they are wrong.

[lyman]

the question i have after reading this thread is that, is it any worse to use "outdated" techniques for nostalgic reasons than it is to use modern recording methods for the sake of staying current and trendy? i guess that's oversimplifying things. if you make your living as an engineer, you're not gonna get the well-paying gigs if you're a 4 track analog purist. to some extent you have to kowtow to the flavor of the month, so to speak...

[dokushoka]

Again: validating a lack of equipment because of insecurity.

I don't think anyone needs to "validate" their equipment or techniques. Some people work well with limitations. Hell, maybe some people like their recordings to sound a little crappy and perhaps they enjoy recording to not so hot gear. That isn't necessarily about insecurity.

You know what I dislike? People who look at making records like a competition. It isn't always about getting the best lows and best highs. Some people are more into to it to FEEL a certain way while doing it. The rest of us that are getting paid, though, well, you know, we're getting paid to get the job done and no one really gives a shit about how we do it...

[dokushoka]

I have to mix stuff where the band wants it to sound like [name thing with autotune and beat detective here] but with my creative input and take on that style of music. I have to decide whether I try and play some BS (IMO) "purist" card and say I "refuse" to use those tools? Fuck that. that would be so lame of me. Who am I to NOT use these things?

No offense Joel, but I think its pretty judgmental of you to call a purist approach lame. There are some people who do amazing work with that very approach, and they deserve respect for getting things done that way, and, furthermore, for standing for something. If you want to be the guy that will to absolutely anything, then that is you. If some guy wants to never touch a DAW because he believes more in coaching a great performance out of a band then creating one with software, then that guy deserves respect, not to be called "lame" or an "asshole."

Is it asshole of the Goat Hill Pizza (www.goathill.com) to never microwave their pizza because they feel that it will ruin the quality of it, and thusly your pizza eating experience? I RESPECT them for their willingness to take a stance and then stand by it. For everyone that doesn't appreciate that, there is pizza hut.

[thethingwiththestuff]

it seems to me that joel means something more like, "people who call themselves purists are usually fooling themselves." remember that letter in the magazine where a guy with less-than-stellar equipment called himself a "purist" and an "audiophile?" just because you throw up a stereo pair and only a stereo pair does not mean you are transparently capturing the performance. and what does that even mean??

even recording with a stereo manley gold reference mic and earthworks pres straight to 192k is not the same as being in the room with the musicians. there are so many ways to deconstruct the idea of "purity" and (shudder) "authenticity" within a recording that to label one's self as such is ridiculous. how does one define purity? how can you have a "pure" reproduction of an event? it's preposterous.

[dokushoka]

You know, there is more to this than is being represented.

I don't like autotune. If I can't coach the singer on how to sing the part better, if I can't help someone to make an arrangement that will help the singer hit the notes, change the key to a better key, slow the tape down, find another band member to sing a backup part that will mask the bad note, etc then I will use the pitch correction plug in in PT to correct only the bad notes. And I just adjust the pitch until it sounds good to everyone, not to "perfect pitch."

I think this approach shows a true respect for the artist as you really want to fix their music instead of just tossing a cheap band aid on for a "quick and easy fix..."

Some people are about FIXING the problem, not masking the symptoms. Its difficult and scary to be that way with clients, but, if you are doing it for the right reasons, I can say that most artists will truly appreciate that mentality. There is nothing "lame" about that.

[Brian]

Joel is mad cuz he's wrong and he knows it. He's seen first hand, working in the city, how plugins cheapen and degrade the talent pool and if he denies it he's lying. It makes him feel bad to know he has contributed to the demise of the industry he works in knowing it will reach his doorstep one day. Forget morality, or, purist, or, hacks, or whatever, if you know exactly what you're doing and how to get what you want without cheapening standards of excellence, you have "the right" and if you don't, you're pushing your luck. So what?
If you know you don't know you have an obligastion to the community to seek knowledge, not to glut the market with lower standards.That would be called "taking the easy way out". It NEVER pays off. You can say you're "satisfying customers" all day or "who am I to,,," Well, hopefu;lly you're a person with some spine and not so short sighted to see that your very work habits in the city inwhich you work have contributed to the downfall of entire artist communities.
It's all your fault. Stop blaming others.

[thethingwiththestuff]

whoa.

[Brian]

Yeah.

[Brian]

Of course, I don't mean All Plugins, just the plugins that hide a huge lack of talent and skill and integrity.

[s00p3rm4n]

I was gone for a while.

So who's a baby puncher? Joel? Meh. It's a living.

Um, in regard to a way earlier post, I think people would have "gotten" Elliott Smith or would "get" the Decemberists if they were advertised. Who would've thought Prince would be a superstar? Zeppelin? Floyd? No one would pick these schlubs out of a lineup and say, "Yeah, that guy with the light-up stiletto boots, I think HE'D make a great pop star." Well, actually, they might. Nevermind. But still, I think we can pretty much all agree that music that requires thought is just not as supported anymore. And that makes Jesus saaaaaad.

[joel hamilton]

Joel is mad cuz he's wrong and he knows it. He's seen first hand, working in the city, how plugins cheapen and degrade the talent pool and if he denies it he's lying. It makes him feel bad to know he has contributed to the demise of the industry he works in knowing it will reach his doorstep one day. Forget morality, or, purist, or, hacks, or whatever, if you know exactly what you're doing and how to get what you want without cheapening standards of excellence, you have "the right" and if you don't, you're pushing your luck. So what?
If you know you don't know you have an obligastion to the community to seek knowledge, not to glut the market with lower standards.That would be called "taking the easy way out". It NEVER pays off. You can say you're "satisfying customers" all day or "who am I to,,," Well, hopefu;lly you're a person with some spine and not so short sighted to see that your very work habits in the city inwhich you work have contributed to the downfall of entire artist communities.
It's all your fault. Stop blaming others.

Amazing post. Thank you for your input. You couldnt be farther from the truth of the situation, but good points nonetheless. The best point you make is that there are many people who dont actually know how records are made yet feel confident and qualified enough to comment on anything. Also, you have no idea what I do and how I do it, nor I you.

I should hope my recordings have enough impact as to be the "downfall."
I would rather make a wave, even a destructive one, than simply not matter. at all. to anyone.

Have a nice day.