Grateful Deads from Blues for Allah till the End

hammertime · Post by **hammertime** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:50 am

I didn't castigate anyone or prejudge anyone. Go ahead and like the Dead. I don't. Usually when people play the Dead and force me to listen to it (rather than asking me if there's anything I'd like to hear), I consider that an invitation to comment on what's being blared at me. I tell them forthright what I don't like about it. When people utter their opinion, I utter mine. You guys are the ones calling me names, not the other way around. If someone impugns my opinion (rather than my own being), I don't get offended. Alot of people don't like what I like. I don't like the New Yorker or Pauline Kael. My dad has a subscription. He tries to get me to read it. I always tell him how much I don't like the articles I read. No big deal.

Tatertot wrote:"Only a twerp would castigate an audience for its enjoyment of something"

-Pauline Kael, the sharp-as-a-tack New Yorker film critic

;ivlunsdystf · Post by **;ivlunsdystf** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:56 am

The New Yorker is a pretty big thing to not like. Lots of authors coming and going. Some good content, some not so good. How can you hate the entire thing? That must take some energy.

Incidentally, the entire history of the New Yorker is available on two DVDs for something like $150 for those who might be interested. It's on my christmas list.

hammertime · Post by **hammertime** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:22 pm

A bit off topic, but, yeah I guess I hate the whole thing. I really dislike the ivory-tower, patronizing, elitist, detached way they write about people whom they deem to be lower class (e.g., prisoners), and make a petit bourgeious exhibit out of everything. Honestly, that magazine just screams "put me down and read something else" at me everytime I pick it up.

Tatertot wrote:The New Yorker is a pretty big thing to not like. Lots of authors coming and going. Some good content, some not so good. How can you hate the entire thing? That must take some energy.

Incidentally, the entire history of the New Yorker is available on two DVDs for something like $150 for those who might be interested. It's on my christmas list.

jmoose · Post by **jmoose** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:03 pm

I've worked with tons of jam bands & mixed LOTS of FOH & monitors for groups in 'the scene' and it's not all bad. Some of it's actually great music & who cares if hippies can't dance?!? Just watch 'em spin & spin & spin & spin & spin...

At least they're all nice people, if they bump into 'ya and spill the drink they'll get you another one. Ok, they COULD shower more but I'd still rather deal with them then the meathead metal crowd. And it's weird...people who like the Dead usually hate Phish and people who like Phish usually don't like the Dead...but they ALL like the other bands like String Cheese & Leftover Salmon. Go figure.

I don't like the Dead's music that much either. Usually I can take about 5-15 minutes at a clip before I start to lose my grip and have flashbacks of being stuck on some gawdawful 18-hour car trip with nothing but Dead tapes and it's like that scene in Clockwork Orange where he's strapped to the chair with his eyes forced open. How many versions of 'Dancin' in the Streets' can one person be subjected too?!?! It's enough to drive a sane person to murder!!! I especially love the 4-part harmony that's never in tune...yet somehow they always kinda' sorta' pull it off. Occasionally there's a flash of brillence but it's just that...a flash.

OTOH, some of the stuff Jerry did outside of the Dead is great, like the Jerry Rice stuff. Same thing with Bob Weir...in the Dead I can't stand him but I dig some of the Ratdog stuff that he's done with Warren Haynes.

hammertime · Post by **hammertime** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:00 pm

To be honest, I actually like some of their songs (ripple, long strange trip). I know the guy who does the dead show on the Chico college station, and he's one of the cooler people I've met here (which isn't saying much). If the Dead was just a local bar band, I'd probably like them okay, but they just don't live up to the incredible amount of hype.

jmoose wrote:I've worked with tons of jam bands & mixed LOTS of FOH & monitors for groups in 'the scene' and it's not all bad. Some of it's actually great music & who cares if hippies can't dance?!? Just watch 'em spin & spin & spin & spin & spin...

At least they're all nice people, if they bump into 'ya and spill the drink they'll get you another one. Ok, they COULD shower more but I'd still rather deal with them then the meathead metal crowd. And it's weird...people who like the Dead usually hate Phish and people who like Phish usually don't like the Dead...but they ALL like the other bands like String Cheese & Leftover Salmon. Go figure.

I don't like the Dead's music that much either. Usually I can take about 5-15 minutes at a clip before I start to lose my grip and have flashbacks of being stuck on some gawdawful 18-hour car trip with nothing but Dead tapes and it's like that scene in Clockwork Orange where he's strapped to the chair with his eyes forced open. How many versions of 'Dancin' in the Streets' can one person be subjected too?!?! It's enough to drive a sane person to murder!!! I especially love the 4-part harmony that's never in tune...yet somehow they always kinda' sorta' pull it off. Occasionally there's a flash of brillence but it's just that...a flash.

OTOH, some of the stuff Jerry did outside of the Dead is great, like the Jerry Rice stuff. Same thing with Bob Weir...in the Dead I can't stand him but I dig some of the Ratdog stuff that he's done with Warren Haynes.

Knights Who Say Neve · Post by **Knights Who Say Neve** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:33 pm

It's funny how you can't mention the Dead on a public forum without someone chiming in about how much they hate them, they noodle too much, their fans stink and can't dance etc. A Flock of Seagulls, say, doesn't provoke this consistent reaction.
I guess I was fortunate, in that my intro to GD was via early 70's space jams like "Dark Star". If I was subjected to 80's Dead for any length of time I'd go quietly mad. Garcia was a junkie by then, they'd forgotten how to write songs, and the keyboard player (Brent Mydland I think his name is) is playing a DX7 or something just as horrid. Pre-75 Dead is a different beast altoegther.

But to get back to the original poster's topic- yes, the late 70's albums have gotten better for me as time goes on. But as a studio document of what they were about, they never topped "Anthem of the Sun". Now THAT is a fun album to listen to for us audio engineer types.

"Just my opinion, dammit."

joeysimms · Post by **joeysimms** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:12 pm

hammertime wrote:I really don't see what people like about them. The singers are out of tune with each other and the band; the jams are monotonous and don't build up to anything; the shows are just an excuse for a bunch of lifeless flake meatheads to bounce around like chickens with their heads cut off or something (I'm sorry, I can't watch a stadium full of stoned white people who can't dance -- they just reinforce racist stereotypes about white people and rhythm). I hate them.
joeysimms wrote:
hammertime wrote:I don't like the music or the people. I've seen them live (on supposedly a good night) on New Years in San Francisco, and there wasn't one moment of musical inspiration. Personally, I'd like to take a fucking crop duster over one of their reunion shows and take out all of them (both the band and the filthy, slobbering idiots who are stupid enough to follow these fourth rate clowns).
So... you like them?!

I was being facetious! Preach it, hammer! I'm not a Dead hater, I just couldn't care less about them and I never feel compelled to listen to them.

foley · Post by **foley** » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:38 pm

And my opinion remains -- they stink. Sorry.

Dude, you missed it. I went to over 40 shows and I like a lot of them, thought others sucked, but didn't really "get it" until about halfway through. Their shit wasn't about the "jam" or whatever - their shit was about collective expression and conciousness. It was absolutely unique and amazing to see them focus the mental energy of a stadium on a single note, or a single solo - that was made up on the spot. Not the Queen "We Will Rock You" sing along in Wembley (we all knew what to expect there) - this shit was pulled out on the fly. Amazing.

It would change your life. Then you'd go back the next night and they could barely get through Touch of Grey without the rhythm collapsing. Frustrating, but the price you pay for brilliance, I suppose.

On an abstract, hipster level Garcia and Lesh were huge Bill Monroe fans, and Garcia actually traveled the bluegrass circuit taping Bill Monroe in the late 50s/early 60s. He could pull obscure Appalachia tunes out of the air, and developed his lead technique through massive hours on the banjo. The guy was the shit - paid dues people like Trey Anastasio (sp?) couldn't imagine.

I'm rambling now, but I just lay this out because the Dead managed to accomplish what every great band hopes for: collective conciousness. For more info, and a great read, you might try "Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" by, uh, whomever. No one is saying you have to like them, there are tons of "great" bands that don't interest me. I guess the difference is that I don't choose to let everyone know how much I think their favorite band sucks.

Ian · Post by **Ian** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:05 am

I had seen the Dead plenty of times and eventually came to the conclusion that I really liked the Jerry Garcia Band a whole lot better, "How Sweet it is" is a really good live record. I think the JGBand had better musicianship and much better backing vocals. After seeing various members of the Dead without Garcia, I came to the conclusion that he was really the only thing I enjoyed about them most of the time, it really is a shame that he took such poor care of himself. I think the "Live in Europe 72" record is also something I can enjoy as well as some of the "Dick's Picks" stuff from the early 70's. By the time I saw them in 1980 I think their better days where behind them, never could really get much enjoyment over any of the studio records. Now I think I saw them around 10 times from 1980 till they stopped, and I do remember them sounding really good once in Saratoga Springs in around 1983, very inspiring playing by all members and a really good FOH mix.

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:42 pm

Hammertime,

Are you Alphajerk in disguise?

jmoose · Post by **jmoose** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:14 pm

Ian wrote:I had seen the Dead plenty of times and eventually came to the conclusion that I really liked the Jerry Garcia Band a whole lot better, "How Sweet it is" is a really good live record. I think the JGBand had better musicianship and much better backing vocals.

'Ya know, the JGB is still touring with Melvin Seals handling lead vocals, and I just can't get that. Like, Jerry's dead man...so like...HOW can there still be a JGB?!?

Wankers.

;ivlunsdystf · Post by **;ivlunsdystf** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:44 pm

'Ya know, the JGB is still touring with Melvin Seals handling lead vocals, and I just can't get that. Like, Jerry's dead man...so like...HOW can there still be a JGB?!?

Maybe they should shorten the name to B. Kind of like I thought 10,000 Maniacs should call themselves "9,999 Maniacs" after Nat Merchant left (but they opted for "Maniacs" instead for their one ill-fated Natless tour

jmoose · Post by **jmoose** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:10 pm

The last I heard they put out an album & were touring under the name "The Slip". Or maybe it was just Melvin and one of the other JGB guys...I never cared enough to pay attention. To me it just sounded like re-hashed Dead.

The Tallman · Post by **The Tallman** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:57 am

To quote or paraphrase Jerry, "What, somebody being critical about the Grateful Dead?"

NewAndImprov · Post by **NewAndImprov** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:11 pm

Living in Oregon, close to Eugene, I've pretty much spent my adult life surrounded by Deadheads and Deadhaters. And, I'm kinda neither, though for a while I was probably leaning towards the -hater side. Saw them once, got tix to them with Dylan in Eugene, I remember the show as being just interminably long, a sloppy set of the Dead enlivened by a brilliant Brent Mydland piano solo, then an equally sloppy and interminable set of the Dead playing Dylan tunes, badly.

But, I just read Phil Lesh's autobiography, and it's a pretty good read. Interesting details about their financial existence, they never really made much money until 1987, and pretty much had to stay on the road because it was their only way to stay afloat, since their records didn't sell all that well. And Lesh feels that their decision to stay on the road so much contributed heavily to the deaths of Pigpen, Garcia, Mydland, etc. Lesh is pretty brutally honest about how bad some of their shows were, which is refreshing.

foley wrote:It would change your life. Then you'd go back the next night and they could barely get through Touch of Grey without the rhythm collapsing. Frustrating, but the price you pay for brilliance, I suppose.

See, this is what always frustrates me about the Dead, they were kinda lazy. The great jazz musicians can go out there and improvise and make that magic happen every freaking night, no matter how fucked up they were. The Dead had an audience that would allow them any number of crappy shows between brilliant ones, and, as a result, they did a LOT of crappy shows.

Message Board

Grateful Deads from Blues for Allah till the End

Who is online