Benefits of a good Mic Pre on 1/4" 8-track tape?

Eric Wallen · Post by **Eric Wallen** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:53 pm

Hello Everyone,

I record on a Fostex R8 1/4" 8-track machine with a Mackie 1604 board, and am looking for the best improvement in sound quality that $1000 - $1800 can buy. I've been focusing my search on a good 2-channel mic pre. My question is, I'm wondering if the benefits of having a good mic pre will be noticable on this 1/4" format (each track having 1/32" of tape to be recorded on)? Also, I usually mix down to DAT (it's what I have available) -- will I be "losing" the sonic benefits of a good mic pre by mixing down to such a medium. I ask these questions because after all of my mic pre research, someone recently told me that I'd be wasting my time buying a mic pre if I was only recording on 1/4" 8-track and mixing to DAT. I'm really hoping he wasn't totally right, but I can see his point. As a side note, I've been happy with the quality of my recordings just using the Mackie pres (with a pretty decent condenser mic), but I'm looking to step it up several notches.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this subject --
Thanks,
Eric

bobbydj · Post by **bobbydj** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:58 pm

I don't think DAT's the issue so much as the Fostex. If you could get an Otari 1/2" 8 track or maybe even a Tascam TRS8 or T-38 that would probably be as good as a better pre for the R8.

Personally I would keep the DAT (I like DAT), get a cheapish pre (maybe even the small Joe Meek or something like that), and ditch the R8 for a 1/2" format.

The downside with this plan is getting a decent 1/2" machine and then affording the reels of tape for it.

Should this be in gear? I dunno.

AnalogElectric · Post by **AnalogElectric** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:27 pm

Personally I really don't like the mic pres in the Mackie boards, they're brittle, lifeless, and kinda honky... even with a decent mic.... and don't get me started with the EQ's. Crud, sorry, I don't mean to crap on what you have but at least you're willing to get a better signal path with outboard pres. I think the Mackies are fine as a monitor, just not all that great as a be-all console.

You will notice a difference in integrity if you don't use the Mackie exclusively, in fact it's better you don't for most things.

Case in point:
I used a U47 longbody tube mic directly into my TASCAM 464 cassette 4-Track's mic pres with better than okay results.... then I tried the U47 with a Manley mono block mic pre and it was a world of difference, even with a format with very little tape width.

Most upper level mic pres have nuances (regarding clarity) that lower level pres generally don't have, especially inexpensive consoles that sacrifice op-amp design for overall function in order to keep cost down.

If you can test drive a nice mic pre in order to a/b the difference, that's the best way to approach it.... that's if you have the means.

-- Adam Lazlo

Eric Wallen · Post by **Eric Wallen** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:53 pm

I'm going to be test driving a few pres in the coming weeks w/ my R8. Two that I know I'll be able to get ahold of are 1) Brent Averill 1272, and 2) Sytek MPX-4Aii. I agree, A/Bing with my particular recording set up is the best way to go, but I thought I'd ask around as well.

Right now I'm committed to sticking with the R8, especially since I just bought another one with plans to sync 'em up. I wouldn't mind a 1" (or 2") 16-track in the future...

Please keep the opinions coming -- they'll help me out a lot...

Thanks!
Eric
p.s. I posted here instead of in gear since I don't mean to get into any specific gear discussions -- but sorry if it should have been there.

OM15.2 · Post by **OM15.2** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:55 pm

AnalogElectric wrote:I used a U47 longbody tube mic directly into my TASCAM 464

that's so wonderfully out of kilter. i love things like that.

I agree regarding getting more out of the 1/4" 8 track. It will never sound like 2" blah blah gold plated ultra tape of the Gods, but it can be a really great format and the microphome signal path is a big part of that so yeah - a better mic pre will give you a better sound, even with 1/4" 8track. Definately.

AnalogElectric · Post by **AnalogElectric** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:08 pm

Eric Wallen wrote:I'm going to be test driving a few pres in the coming weeks w/ my R8. Two that I know I'll be able to get ahold of are 1) Brent Averill 1272, and 2) Sytek MPX-4Aii. I agree, A/Bing with my particular recording set up is the best way to go, but I thought I'd ask around as well.

Right now I'm committed to sticking with the R8, especially since I just bought another one with plans to sync 'em up. I wouldn't mind a 1" (or 2") 16-track in the future...

Please keep the opinions coming -- they'll help me out a lot...

Thanks!
Eric
p.s. I posted here instead of in gear since I don't mean to get into any specific gear discussions -- but sorry if it should have been there.

1272's I find to be a bit dumpy... but that might be just me. I really like the Sytek stuff but I know many that don't like them cuz they have a very specific colored sound to them. Let us know what you think!

-- Adam Lazlo

jpmorris · Post by **jpmorris** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:46 pm

Eric Wallen wrote:Right now I'm committed to sticking with the R8, especially since I just bought another one with plans to sync 'em up.

Just checking, you know that you'll have to stripe track 8 on both machines with a timecode, right? And that on the 1/4" 8-track format that kind of loses you track 7 as well? If you record anything on #7, it will swamp #8 and break the sync lock. So it was with my A8, anyway. You'll still get 12 tracks out of it, mind, which is better than 7 or 8 :)

On the TSR-8, I very rarely have problems using track 7 (I use #8 to drive a sequencer, although I will get a second machine one day and sync 'em up :)

Just thought you might find that useful to know.

nick_a · Post by **nick_a** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:41 pm

i bought a tascam 38 for like 250 dollars really recently. I say up your track width with some of that money and then get something awesome with the rest of your money. A lot can be had for like 1400 bucks.

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:13 pm

I don't mind this question here because it is more theoretical...

Yes there is better medium than the 1/4" 8-track. But you've said that you're not changing it out anytime soon. That's fine, you've made an informed decision that works for you.

So if you are planning to capture sound in the air, convert them to electrical signals and amplify said signal to a level that will work for you storage medium, you should capture those signals as best you can. A better mic pre will in fact do that. I'm sure you've heard the difference when you change or move mics that are feeding that recorder. I guaranty that you will also hear differences if you change the mic pre.

There are many mic pres that sound better than the ones in your board. The two you mention should serve you nicely. The question will really be, "which of these will be most useful to me?" Only you can answer that. The answer might be "none of the above" and you will have to keep looking.

Good Luck in your quest!

Eric Wallen · Post by **Eric Wallen** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:54 pm

jpmorris wrote:
Eric Wallen wrote:Right now I'm committed to sticking with the R8, especially since I just bought another one with plans to sync 'em up.
Just checking, you know that you'll have to stripe track 8 on both machines with a timecode, right? And that on the 1/4" 8-track format that kind of loses you track 7 as well? If you record anything on #7, it will swamp #8 and break the sync lock. So it was with my A8, anyway. You'll still get 12 tracks out of it, mind, which is better than 7 or 8

On the TSR-8, I very rarely have problems using track 7 (I use #8 to drive a sequencer, although I will get a second machine one day and sync 'em up

Just thought you might find that useful to know.

Yes, I had factored in the SMPTE striping on track 8 of both machines, but I *didn't* know that I'd be losing track 7 on both as well. Hmmm...thanks for the heads up.

-- Eric

jpmorris · Post by **jpmorris** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:07 am

Eric Wallen wrote: Yes, I had factored in the SMPTE striping on track 8 of both machines, but I *didn't* know that I'd be losing track 7 on both as well. Hmmm...thanks for the heads up.
-- Eric

The biggest problem I had was crosstalk during recording. If you record on track 7, it will swamp track 8 during the recording. You might get away with it if you don't need a lock during the recording, e.g. you use #7 for overdubs. It definitely won't work if you're trying to do a live 14-channel recording.

It all depends on whether it affects the recorded track on #8. If it does, you've got a big problem. You'll have to experiment and see what you can get away with.

You're also more likely to hear the SMPTE code on track 7 with the R8.

Derrick · Post by **Derrick** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:45 am

Anybody have the manual or service instructions for a Fostex A8??

jpmorris · Post by **jpmorris** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 10:56 am

Derrick wrote:Anybody have the manual or service instructions for a Fostex A8??

I do have the user manual. Not the service manual, though.
It does however describe basic operations, tape threading and IIRC, which pots are which when lining the machine up.

It's not very long so I might be able to scan it in.

burn · Post by **burn** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:46 am

OM15.2 wrote:
AnalogElectric wrote:I used a U47 longbody tube mic directly into my TASCAM 464
that's so wonderfully out of kilter. i love things like that.

I agree regarding getting more out of the 1/4" 8 track. It will never sound like 2" blah blah gold plated ultra tape of the Gods, but it can be a really great format and the microphome signal path is a big part of that so yeah - a better mic pre will give you a better sound, even with 1/4" 8track. Definately.

SECONDED! you'll probably get better sounds with a API pre in front of a cassette 4 track than with a mackie pre with a Studer 2". Am I wrong?

drumsound · Post by **drumsound** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:33 pm

burn wrote:
OM15.2 wrote:
AnalogElectric wrote:I used a U47 longbody tube mic directly into my TASCAM 464
that's so wonderfully out of kilter. i love things like that.

I agree regarding getting more out of the 1/4" 8 track. It will never sound like 2" blah blah gold plated ultra tape of the Gods, but it can be a really great format and the microphome signal path is a big part of that so yeah - a better mic pre will give you a better sound, even with 1/4" 8track. Definately.
SECONDED! you'll probably get better sounds with a API pre in front of a cassette 4 track than with a mackie pre with a Studer 2". Am I wrong?

Maybe yes maybe no...

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Benefits of a good Mic Pre on 1/4" 8-track tape?

Benefits of a good Mic Pre on 1/4" 8-track tape?

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