To Joel

MichaelAlan · Post by **MichaelAlan** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:48 am

Joel Hamilton,

Could you kindly explain the definition of a term you use quite often: "gain staging"? I'm a little confused on the meaning.

Mike

Fletcher · Post by **Fletcher** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:13 am

I sincerely apologize for answering this as I'm not Joel... nor do I play Joel on TV... but it's really not rocket surgery.

The short version is that you are careful to make sure the levels of your signal path are at the optimal level for each unit in the chain. In most cases that means "unity gain" ["0" in = "0" out]... though there are times when you'll want to drive one unit harder [or softer] than the other units in the chain.

These determinations are what are called "gain staging"... like I said, most of the time you're going to want to go for unity gain unless you're looking for a specific effect.

Effects like Pultec EQ's often sound a bit "better" if you run into them with like a +10 or even +20 signal and knock that signal back down to "0" on the way out... things like t.c. 2240 EQ's seem to like to have the signal knocked down 5-10db at the input so they don't run out of headroom in the EQ section... then pick the gain up with another variable line amplifier at the output... those kind of effects.

I hope this is of assistance.

joel hamilton · Post by **joel hamilton** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:50 am

Fletcher wrote: These determinations are what are called "gain staging"... like I said, most of the time you're going to want to go for unity gain unless you're looking for a specific effect.

Effects like Pultec EQ's often sound a bit "better" if you run into them with like a +10 or even +20 signal and knock that signal back down to "0" on the way out... things like t.c. 2240 EQ's seem to like to have the signal knocked down 5-10db at the input so they don't run out of headroom in the EQ section... then pick the gain up with another variable line amplifier at the output... those kind of effects.

I hope this is of assistance.

No apologies needed when someone who knows what they are talking about chimes in, Fletch.

The latter part of what Fletcher wrote, and what i quoted, is usually what i am talking about. Gain staging AS eq, or AS a tone shaping device. Deciding WHEN in a chain to aplify or attenuate can make a HUGE difference to the overall sonic character and "footprint" any given source has in the mix.

An example would be to crank down am electric gtr through something like a 160A, no compression, just turning it down, then gain it back up with the ine amp of something else, like a 33609: Totally different overall sonic character. Not entirely dependent on the device used for attenuationg/amplifying, but obviously they will impart something as well. Even a fader....

joelpatterson · Post by **joelpatterson** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 7:51 am

I'm not Joel either, nor am I Fletcher, but I read his post and it seems pretty fair. I would wait for the "real" Joel answer myself, I'm sure he'll have a way of putting it in the clearest perspective.

joelpatterson · Post by **joelpatterson** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:11 am

And my additional resolution for 2006-- Christ, hit the submit button faster.

caseyLA · Post by **caseyLA** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:03 am

Does anyone notice the effects of gain staging when using plugins? For example, the companies that are putting out the vintage simulations, do they model the effects of hitting the EQ or compressor harder or softer?

Professor · Post by **Professor** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:42 pm

Hard to say about the plug-ins though I know I like to use the LA-2A or 1176 plugs in ProTools if I need to boost the gain rather than the gain plug or just pushing the fader up. Even if they're not modeling specifically for an overdriven (or underdriven) input stage, they are still modeling the sound of the device as an amplifier.

And one addition I'll throw in on the gain staging question since it was outlined though not stated directly, is that gain staging is important not only between pieces of gear, but within pieces of gear - in that distance between the input and output. A great example of this is to see guys that are struggling with live sound systems during a show. I'll often see someone who has either all of the channel & master faders maxed and can't seem to get a good signal, or has many or all of his channel fader pulled almost to the bottom of their range trying to hold back a loud source. That means they don't understand the purpose of that "gain" knob at the top of the channel strip, you know, the first damn thing the signal hits on the strip (give or take a pad or 48v switch). During the sound check, the engineer should (ideally) place the master fader at 0dB (all the way up) and the channel faders at 0dB (these go to +10 max). Then simply have the player play some of what they will play at that show and set a good level for it with the gain control. Later, during the show, the engineer will still have 10 more dB to go up on the fader and plenty of room to move down, and everything on that particular board whould be running in its optimal range.
As mentioned, sometimes things are run stronger or weaker for particular effects or because of gear limitations, but the starting point is understanding where amplification (gain) actually happens in a device, and where attenuation happens (at the faders).

-Jeremy

I'm Painting Again · Post by **I'm Painting Again** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:15 pm

to put it even more simply..

you have an amplification circut or circuts in most gear..you chain lots of gear together..so the way you set each piece is how its "staged" overall..maybe I'm using a 15db inline pad between the mic and the pre..then also the built in pad on the pre(two "stages" right there)..then i have the input gain on the pre at 12 o'clock and the output pot at 6' o clock(two more stages)..to the tape machine which has an in level(one more stage)..then the machine is set for NAB 250n/w +3(also sort of a gain stage)..that might be a typical chain from mic to tape..your dealing with 5 or 6 amplifier circuts in this hypothetical situation..the way you set all the gain settings on the gear makes a difference in sound..you also have gain settings, or "stages" on the "back end" or from the tape or DAW to the final destination on mixdown..hope that clears it up in case it wasnt clear enough..

MichaelAlan · Post by **MichaelAlan** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:26 pm

Sweet. Now I get it. And actually what Bear O' Beeeez sais was pretty helpful..( not that your post went unnoticed Joel)

Now that I look back on projects, and I can see how sometimes the same chain has sounded different at times. So, and tips on things to NOT do when setting up all your different pieces?

Mike

joelpatterson · Post by **joelpatterson** » Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:42 pm

MichaelAlan wrote:( not that your post went unnoticed Joel)

Mike

What a relief.

I think that eventually you develop an instinct for what results you get from doing what. It's no so much "right" and "wrong" as what are you after, and how have you gotten that in the past?

One mantra might be appropriate here, and it's something I hate to hear, but it goes something like "proper engineering can be the enemy of creativity."

tactics · Post by **tactics** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:20 am

joelpatterson wrote:And my additional resolution for 2006-- Christ, hit the submit button faster.

Rotten Luck.One minute late.

joelpatterson · Post by **joelpatterson** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:55 am

tactics wrote:
Rotten Luck.One minute late.

Don't I know it. And I coulda been somebody!

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