the monster in my studio

[JamesHE]

I'm starting a project, (a reunion of sorts) 3 piece, "power trio" for lack of a better term. Me - I'm sort of a folkey (early leonard Cohen, Ani, Jeff Buckley, Tom Waits) whatever you want to call that kind of music. The bassist is a jazz player, tower of power funk, to way way out experimental stuff (actually he's the real monster) And the drummer is this character, some would say stuck somwhere between the years 1978 and 1993. Big kit, lots of stuff, air drummed to Neil Pert for years and years and still does. You know, the kind of guy that really likes Dream Theater, and not just because of Mike Portinoy.

We played together in high school, in what started as a Heavy Metal band. I'd say we ended up progressive - alternative, but it's not 1994 anymore so I just feel dumb.

You can ignore this background info or not. I give it almost apologeticaly. (I started a similar thread in "recording techniques", but I felt like it was going to turn into a thread about what a cheeseball the drummer must be, which isn't very helpfull cause duh! I already freaking know that!
Being that the band is all about the tension created in trying to mesh these different styles, keep an open mind. As dated as it may seem, the drum sound he's begging me for is something like Rush's Moving Pictures.
So ummm, lots of verb on the snare and toms, big wide panning of the toms, gates gates and more gates. Basically a close miced sounding kit. I have a really dead room so, thats a good start. my gear is another matter.
We wont be tracking for a month or 2 while we get the material together, so lots of time to experiment, and hopefully make all this budget stuff work. For the first experimant.

I set up tom mics tonite.

Cad M179 on the 22" Gong Bass drum
AT pro25 16" floor tom
ATM25 14" floor tom
AT pro25 13" rack tom
57's on the 12" + 10" rack toms. (All of above running into a Mackie 1402)
57's on 12" and 10" concert toms (running into Art Dual MP)
Behringer ECM8000 between the 8" and 6" concert toms (into a Art MP)

yes, that 10 toms. and for the rest

overheads - MXL 603s into Aphex 107
kick- B52 - 828 mkII pre
snare- (for the moment) GT AM-11 828 mkII pre

that crappy omni between to 2 highest toms sound really good believe it or not. the 57's work well on the other 2 concert toms. I really don't like the 57's on the rack toms, the AT mics have a nice big punch, (very nice on the floor toms) It's almost close, but whats letting me down here (I believe) is the Mackie. (granted the drum heads need to be replaced, but we want to wait until we start tracking to do that)

If i push the mics a little going in the board, the toms start to open up, but... The Mackie distorts in a really ugly way. (I guess they're known for that ) Aside for my overheads (which are ok but not spectacular) the pres are my weak link. So I'm looking for either a 8 channel pre (Studio Projects, M-audio Octane, Presonus - something in that price range) or try and make the best of the Mackie and add 2 or so channels of something better (RNP, a few EH pres) or possibly a different board. I may be able to score a Soundcraft Spirit sx for practically nothing (trading the mackie)
I'm hoping the Soundcraft will be the ticket, I might be able to try it out before I get it. A possibility? anyone tracked drums with that board?

And the overheads, I like the 603's and the Aphex 107 combo, but I haven't used much else. I'm thinking we're going to want something with a little more sizzle. (they are bright, but I'm thinking something more crisp) Anything in a similar price range (possibly a LDC pair might have it)
I can't afford 414's, I think that's what I'd want. Renting might be a possibility. (and a nice pre while I'm at it) Otherwise, any cheap pairs out there with a similar sound?

thanks for your time. Any help on my choices is much appreciated.

[Professor]

I don't quite understand why folks are so quick to pick on drummers with big drum sets while making no mention of the guitarist with 10 pedals that always seem to create a different kind of hum every time their set up. And I like a bit of reverb on snare... and on overheads and on toms, so I can make it sound like the whole band is playing in the same space. Sure an 8-sec decay on the snare reverb is a bit much but there are at least a couple steps between that and dry.

But away from that and onto the gear questions. Luckily you have two months to work out the drum sound.
It sounds like the toms are an important part of this guy's perception of the set, and that he is going to want to hear his sound from his perspective. I would use a transformerless large diaphragm condenser in an ORTF pair close in over his head and a nice kick mic as a starting point. Use the best LDC pair you've got for now (do you have a second AM-11? ), but if you can go transformerless, that will help give you a fuller low end and will really pull the sound out of the toms. And I think you'll be surprised at how much imaging and big wide tom panning you'll get without even bringing in the tom mics.
For a set that big, I really think that needs to be your foundation. Get a good stereo image from the overheads, and supplement that with the kick mic since the kick isn't projecting its sound back at the player like every other instrument is. Oh, and have him hit just the kick a few times while recording those three channels and then flip the phase on the two overheads and time align the initial impulse of the kick drum (delay the kick mic) until it lines up with the OH mics. That'll be your foundation to build the rest of the sound.
Then add a snare mic that brings what is missing from the overheads. I don't know what that is without hearing them, though I know the closeness of the mic to the drum will give it some clarity in the mix. But if the snare is tubby and heavy in the OHs, then try something bright on the close snare mic, or vice versa. Here again, flip the phase to match the (already reversed) overheads, and time align the impact. Dial in a little reverb on the snare and a little more on the OHs, and let the guy hear how it sounds.

After that, start making your determinations about what mics to drop on the toms. If you need more fullness and weight from the low toms, then grab a mic that does that. But if you need more articulation, then grab one that does that. Work your way around the kit that way, building up as you go. Oh, don't forget to match the phase to the overheads and time align. (single-headed toms can sound pretty cool when mic'ed from below, like you would on a kick, but keep in mind those mics would then be catching the initial attack in-phase as regards nature, though reversed from the top-mic'ed drums, but since the OHs are already flipped, the under-mics will be right as is.)
When you actually track, I'm assuming you're tracking to a DAW. Don't cop out and apply gates to the toms - those are really only meant for live sound and non-automated mixers. If you're on a DAW and you've tracked toms, then cut the mics out when each drum is not being played. (Hopefully some tracks will go away on each song.) Where each drum hit actually appears, just trim up really close to the attack and give it a short fade up to the attack. On the decay side, allow enough time for the drum to ring out, which may be under a second on the little guys but perhaps 3-4 seconds on the big-uns.
That should be a great way to build up to the full-on kit sound.

As for preamps, I would just say to run the Mackie preamps lower for now. If your peaks are hitting in the -18dBFS range on the DAW, then that is equivalent to 0dBvu and you will be able to push the level stronger in mix down and with compression in the DAW. Don't over do it by trying to hit odBFS inside the DAW on the way in.
If you really must get more preamps, the Soundcraft board is going to be among your best bets in the lower price range. Graham Blythe does a fine job designing preamps (and playing pipe organ). Prehaps the Presonus will be a bit better, but at $2k list for the 8-channel, it's not quite in the same price bracket as the other stuff mentioned and hell a Crest XR mixer lists around $2k which is something else to consider.

That should had oughtta be more than enough to get you started.

-Jeremy

[vvv]

I don't quite understand why folks are so quick to pick on drummers with big drum sets while making no mention of the guitarist with 10 pedals that always seem to create a different kind of hum every time their set up.

Eh, because the guitarist is typically only humming into a mic or 3, and the drummer requires 10+?

[jeddypoo]

I don't quite understand why folks are so quick to pick on drummers with big drum sets while making no mention of the guitarist with 10 pedals that always seem to create a different kind of hum every time their set up. -Jeremy

Well, I hate both, really. Instrumentalists who own TONS of gear for their one instrument always seem a little...vain, and kind of cheesy. And yeah, it's annoying sound-wise. I was in jazz (as a bassist) for a long time and excessive gear was generally scoffed at, in my experience, so maybe that's why I feel that way. But the one difference between a bunch of pedals and a bunch of toms and cymbals, besides the space they take up, is that the pedals will make a much more noticable difference in the textures and tones of the music being played than having an 8" liquid-cooled flying rimjob rack tom will.

[nlmd311]

...But the one difference between a bunch of pedals and a bunch of toms and cymbals, besides the space they take up, is that the pedals will make a much more noticable difference in the textures and tones of the music being played than having an 8" liquid-cooled flying rimjob rack tom will.

Uh-oh. I anticipate a feud.

-Darrill

[nlmd311]

... I would use a transformerless large diaphragm condenser in an ORTF pair close in over his head and a nice kick mic as a starting point. Use the best LDC pair you've got for now (do you have a second AM-11? ), but if you can go transformerless, that will help give you a fuller low end and will really pull the sound out of the toms. And I think you'll be surprised at how much imaging and big wide tom panning you'll get without even bringing in the tom mics...

Hi Professor,
I hope this doesn't go too far off the topic discussed in the initial post, but would you mind going into a little more detail as to the use of a transformerless microphone vs. the use of one with a transformer (I understand the specific microphone and transformer are going to be a huge aspect of the sound, but...)? I think you gave a good round explaination here, but it leaves me wanting more. I did a brief Google search, but haven't really turned up anything of use.

Thanks

-Darrill

[r0ck1r0ck2]

chik-chik

[JohnDavisNYC]

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!!!


i'm going to just chime in and say that i know lots of guitarrists with lots of pedals, and the ones that are good and know what they're doing, it always works fine, and they'll plug in only the ones they need for a given song/part. drummers are a different beast, and i don't think i've ever seen anyone with a big drumset A) actually use it all or B) have a well setup instrument that sounds good. the best drummers i've played with, including people with rediculous chops, all play 4 or 5 peice kits. 2 or 3 toms MAX... maybe someone like Keith Carlock with bring out a second floor tom from time to time, or someone will have a second snare, but... the big drumset thing is really just a macho holdover from the 80's hair metal/prog scene. yeah, yeah, billy cobham was awesome with his huge drumset in the 70s, but everything about that stuff is dated.

i dunno. my two cents.

john

[jeddypoo]

In the 16+ years that I have been a musician (drums, bass, guitar, piano, about in that order), I have noticed what I would consider to be an inverse relationship between overall musicality and gear obsessiveness/lust. Almost every single drummer I have known who is super-fussy about their stuff and about having as many options as possible has been lackluster when it comes to their actual drumming, if not downright bad. Pretty much every single one. And I'll extend that, to a lesser degree, to guitar players.

I was going to give an example of a recording of a New York indie pop group I recorded a little while back, but I erased it, because it seemed kinda smug, which was not my intention.

I think people can get along just fine with minimial or crappy gear if they're creative enough. The problem is, they don't try.

[Professor]

Yer right man, that Neil Peart guy sucks balls and just hides behind the gear. And shit, did you see that Dave Matthews concert in Central Park where Carter was just sucking the life out of the band with all those toms, cymbals and toys? If only there were a "good" jazz guy, maybe one who 'studied' the music in a dignified music program and knew that it only takes a kick, snare, ride and hats to prove you're good.
To the guitarists and bssists, I'd simply ask that you romove half the strings on your instrument and tell me if it feels like half your instrument is gone. Have you ever met a pianist who complains if he/she has to play on a keyboard with fewer than all 88 keys? What seems to be misunderstood is that the instrument for a drummer is the whole drum set, and some guys like to have one with more sonic possibilities. Sure you can play a whole night of jazz combo stuff on a three-piece set with one cymbal, but if someone actually sits through the whole show they might dread the drum solos because they all sound pretty similar. Adding a couple more toms is like adding a third string to your half of a bass, and adding a few more cymbals is like adding in that fourth string. Sure, a "good" bass player can make do with just two strings - hell a good jug band player could make do with a string, a stick and a washtub. But it's not about "making do" it's about making art, and some people prefer to use lots of colorful pastels while others work in charcoal. Talent is talent, but the medium provides different levels of expression.


But somewhere back there was a legitimate question about microphones. This is somewhat of a generalization because of course the effects would be noticed to a greater or lesser extent based on different microphone designs, but in general you can expect transformer-based condenser microphones to have a different character than transformerless microphones. Transformers in all kinds of equipment do some wonderful electrical things that can be very valuable, but they also introduce distortion into the signal path. Depending on the design, they also tend to limit the frequency response at the top and bottom end of the gear. You'll find that much of the history of equipment manufacturers up until fairly recently presents a drive towards cleaner sounding equipment with more consistency and a broader, flatter frequency response. Since transformers add distortions and limitations, and because they are heavy and expensive, they were removed from a lot of equipment designs in favor of cleaner, more consistent, and less expensive options.
Eventually those designs kind of crossed a threshold into the "too clean for me" stage because of course, a super clean, super accurate microphone exposes the flaws of other parts of the recording chain, especially bad instruments, poorly constructed rooms, bad technique, and whatever other gear is more noisy. That kind of fueled the retro craze, along with a few other factors, and now you tend to see transformers popping up in all sorts of gear where the limitations of cheaper transformers can be claimed as an intentional nod to a 'vintage' style.
As for what they tend to do in microphones, it is generally hard to tell because there are very few microphone designs which are identical except for transformers inside. The AKG 414 B/ULS has one (which they swear has no effect on the sound) while the 414 TLII is transformerless. (these are now the XLS and XLII) The Neumann U87 has a transformer while the U89 doesn't, but there is also a significant difference in the capsule design between those two. I'm lucky enough to have a set of MBHO mic preamps and capsules in a system kit in which I included a pair of #648 transformer preamp bodies and a pair of 603 transformerless. In general, the sonic difference you'll notice between two mics is that transformer mics will have a weaker low end (not always a bad thing) which tends to roll off early and doesn't deliver the full punch on a low source. As I understand it electrically, this is because the windings of the transformer become saturated with signal at a certain point, and simply can't deliver more bass no matter how much is sent in (if the tranny is in the signal path) or that the transformer is delivering all of the voltage it can for its size and can't send in more regardless of the demand of the circuit (if it's doing voltage step-up duties).
They also tend to effect top end of the mic because they introduce distortions. Again, these may be considered very "pleasing" sounds, but they are there. Generally I find transformer mics sound a bit more nasally or edgy on the top end, not necessarily 'bright' but just not clear. These are the added harmonic distortions building up which adds upper harmonics to the sounds that aren't there naturally.

How any one engineer chooses to apply this is entirely up to him/her. As I sit here considering the mics in the locker at school, I can say I own a lot more transformer-less mics. And if I had to pick one condenser mic for the rest of my career it would likely be an edge-terminated transformerless like a TLM-193, U-89 or 414-TLII. But that's me, and someone else might choose a transformer mic, and of course I'd prefer to have both. I tend to reach for one or the other based on the color I'm looking to accentuate or subdue in an instrument. Or if I'm reaching for an overall feel on a project, like aiming for a "vintage" style of sound, then I would put up more transformer mics on say drum overheads and such, just like I'd be inclined to pull out the tubes and ribbons, because that's what was used 'back then'.

-Jeremy

[jeddypoo]

I've been playing drums for 16 years, as well as bass, guitar, and piano. In that time I've had two kits: a three-piece slingerland 66' that was my grandfather's and didn't come with either a floor tom OR hi-hats, and a Pearl Export Series that I got when I was 16 which was used even then. I've never in all that time had the desire for another kit, after playing out in many bands and recording actual releases with said drums. They were just fine with me- especially since I could never really afford a better kit anyway.

I'm not really buying the analogy between a three-stringed bass and a drum set with only two toms. I dunno. Not really worth a fight, in my mind, I'm just saying, a lot of us, who couldn't really afford great equipment, have just done without it, and it hasn't killed us. And I never took an instrument lesson- I studied theory with a trombonist/arranger and that was it. I'm not trying to be high & mighty, sorry. And the Neil Perts of the world are exceptions, if you ask me.

[JohnDavisNYC]

well, i think that asking someone to scale down a 12 peice kit to something reasonable is kinda like asking the dude with the 9 string bass that looks like a coffee table to record with a nice old jazz bass. if he's not playing that blazing bebop solo in mandolin register on this tune, just play a normal bass, dude. it'll sound better than having 8 other sympathetic strings than the one you're trying to play. someone who likes bosendorfers should be able to deal on a steinway without the extra 8 low notes or whatever.

i do agree with you that it got away from the question of how to record a huge drumset, but also raised a good question of WHY record a big drumset... does the music need it, or is it a macho thing... if the music absolutely needs it, then yes, you find a way to record it well, and your idea of building the sound from the overheads is really good.

anything CAN be recorded... but SHOULD everything be recorded?

john

[JamesHE]

It sounds like the toms are an important part of this guy's perception of the set, and that he is going to want to hear his sound from his perspective. I would use a transformerless large diaphragm condenser in an ORTF pair close in over his head and a nice kick mic as a starting point. Use the best LDC pair you've got for now (do you have a second AM-11? ), but if you can go transformerless, that will help give you a fuller low end and will really pull the sound out of the toms. And I think you'll be surprised at how much imaging and big wide tom panning you'll get without even bringing in the tom mics.
For a set that big, I really think that needs to be your foundation. Get a good stereo image from the overheads, and supplement that with the kick mic since the kick isn't projecting its sound back at the player like every other instrument is. Oh, and have him hit just the kick a few times while recording those three channels and then flip the phase on the two overheads and time align the initial impulse of the kick drum (delay the kick mic) until it lines up with the OH mics. That'll be your foundation to build the rest of the sound.
Then add a snare mic that brings what is missing from the overheads. I don't know what that is without hearing them, though I know the closeness of the mic to the drum will give it some clarity in the mix. But if the snare is tubby and heavy in the OHs, then try something bright on the close snare mic, or vice versa. Here again, flip the phase to match the (already reversed) overheads, and time align the impact. Dial in a little reverb on the snare and a little more on the OHs, and let the guy hear how it sounds.

After that, start making your determinations about what mics to drop on the toms. If you need more fullness and weight from the low toms, then grab a mic that does that. But if you need more articulation, then grab one that does that. Work your way around the kit that way, building up as you go. Oh, don't forget to match the phase to the overheads and time align. (single-headed toms can sound pretty cool when mic'ed from below, like you would on a kick, but keep in mind those mics would then be catching the initial attack in-phase as regards nature, though reversed from the top-mic'ed drums, but since the OHs are already flipped, the under-mics will be right as is.)
When you actually track, I'm assuming you're tracking to a DAW. Don't cop out and apply gates to the toms - those are really only meant for live sound and non-automated mixers. If you're on a DAW and you've tracked toms, then cut the mics out when each drum is not being played. (Hopefully some tracks will go away on each song.) Where each drum hit actually appears, just trim up really close to the attack and give it a short fade up to the attack. On the decay side, allow enough time for the drum to ring out, which may be under a second on the little guys but perhaps 3-4 seconds on the big-uns.
That should be a great way to build up to the full-on kit sound.

As for preamps, I would just say to run the Mackie preamps lower for now. If your peaks are hitting in the -18dBFS range on the DAW, then that is equivalent to 0dBvu and you will be able to push the level stronger in mix down and with compression in the DAW. Don't over do it by trying to hit odBFS inside the DAW on the way in.
If you really must get more preamps, the Soundcraft board is going to be among your best bets in the lower price range. Graham Blythe does a fine job designing preamps (and playing pipe organ). Prehaps the Presonus will be a bit better, but at $2k list for the 8-channel, it's not quite in the same price bracket as the other stuff mentioned and hell a Crest XR mixer lists around $2k which is something else to consider.

That should had oughtta be more than enough to get you started.

-Jeremy

thanks professor
I wish I had a pair of 414's to experiment with, maybe one day. My only LDC's at the moment are the AM-11 and the CAD M179. one of each. I love the Am-11, would liek to have a pair. unfortunatly they are hard to find. Sometimes I'll see people selling back stock new one's, but for like $350 which is more than I'd want to pay for one. I did experiment with the M179 and one of the 603's in M/S. There was something that seemed a little "cold" in the sound of the M179 above the kit. I haven't tried the Am-11, 179 in that setup, might be good. You've recommended ORTF, any thoguhts about M/S for overheads, being that I don't have a matched pair? And with ORTF are you usually pointing them mostly downward or more towards the front?

for my experiments, I have just been using plug-in gates, but that's just for convenience. When you mention time alligning the tracks, I think I know exactly what you mean. Do you just do this "visually" in the DAW? Or is it more of a nudge, then listen, then nudge again sort of thing?

The really frustrating thing about huge kits is that everything is so crammed up together. On this kit there is a cymbal of some kind on top of every tom. (as a side note - I've been raising up the ride a little bit (a very small bit) before each rehersal, he noticed once, but I just said I must have bumped something, and he didn't move it back. ) If I get around to it, I'd like to make some right angle mic cables, that would help a bit.
The 57's are the hardest to place. For my tom mic placement I'm putting them roughly 1" in and 1" off the head to start out with. There might be a question there.

And oh yeah I have a big pedal board

but not too many effects, the boxes are just huge. Line 6 Delay Moddler, Memory Man, Electric Mistress, and a Ernie Ball Volume. That's a lots of real estate for 4 effects! (if you even count Volume as an effect)

[joeysimms]

Yer right man, that Neil Peart guy sucks balls and just hides behind the gear. And shit, did you see that Dave Matthews concert in Central Park where Carter was just sucking the life out of the band with all those toms, cymbals and toys? If only there were a "good" jazz guy, maybe one who 'studied' the music in a dignified music program and knew that it only takes a kick, snare, ride and hats to prove you're good.

I know you're being facetious here, but I really do think Neil Peart sucks balls.

[Professor]

I know you're being facetious here, but I really do think Neil Peart sucks balls.

I'm sure he might have some choice words for you too - but I can't say for certain. Hell, I'm sure many people feel that I suck when I play and I really could stand to practice more, but it's sometimes kinda hard to find the time.

I think that perhaps my perspective is different from some of the others posting here because I don't believe in trying to reshape the musicians who come to my studio into some mould of how I want them to play. Sure, there have been plenty of times I've asked a drummer to play a kit that was already in the room, but I've always given them the option to bring their own, and to swap out cymbals and snares and such, and honestly it's usually been a bigger kit if only at a 5 or 6 piece. Hell, even if they bring in their own, I offer up extra cymbals if they want additional colors. If a guitarist really must play through his full-size Marshall stack, then that's what I'll do. If a pianist really needs the extra bottom octave of the Bosendorfer 260 then they'll just have to go somewhere else because my 9' concert grand is only an 88-key.
What I'm saying is that engineers serve the musicians, not the other way around. If the guy comes in with an enormous drumset, then that's his instrument. End of discussion, unless there's actually shit that's broken and doesn't sound good. If someone comes in with three different saxophones for a session, I don't argue with him to just pick the alto and leave the soprano and tenor out - I just listen to each, pull a mic for each, and switch back and forth for each tune.

Back to the mic'ing of the big kit...
I know the AM-11 as well, and happen to own a pair of them although they are currently residing with an ex-girlfriend in Boston, but I'll be asking for them back soon along with the 8 other mics I loaned her over a year ago. they are a slightly bright mic, but would probably do very well in a pair, and may also work well for you in a Mid/Side matrix over the kit.
When I suggested ORTF, it was because you get a nice stereo spread from both the volume difference of the mics and the timing difference of the slight spacing (no timing difference in MS) and an LDC pair will usually give you fuller toms. Of course you really need a matched pair to pull off ORTF well, so it may be worth trying with your 603s. The position would be a couple feet over the drummer (like just above his head if he were standing) and 'looking' down into the toms as kind of the middle of the kit vertically. That would give you a nice wide spread.
Like I said, those concert toms can sound kinda cool from underneath, and then placement isn't an issue. If you can't get a mic on the drums, that should be easy enough to mention to the drummer. If he's looking for mics on every tom, then he needs to help accomodate that as much as he can, and a few inches up on a cymbal shouldn't mess him up too bad - unless he's blind and needs the location memory. But either way, do what you can to find your sound from the top down, and you should find that this "beast" in the studio ain't really that difficult after all.

-Jeremy