Racist. Homophobic. Misogynistic. Pro Life?

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Professor
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Post by Professor » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:29 pm

Who is the hate-monger? The artist or the engineer who tells them to go away because he doesn't agree with their ideas?

In the past, people who owned and controlled printing presses were able to control the thoughts and opinions of the masses - to greater and lesser degrees. A printer might be imprisoned or burned at the stake for printing a manifesto on free love or free thought. The printer, as well as the author. Here's a snippet from that link above about Voltaire:
Then the Dauphin read it.
The privilege to publish was revoked; the censor who approved its publication was sacked. A rolling wave of official condemnation began, culminating with the Pope (Jan. 31, 1759) and the Parliament of Paris (Feb. 6) and public book-burning by the hangman (Feb. 10), an honor shared with Voltaire's ``Natural Law.''
I consider myself to be a part of the lineage of the printer. Certainly times are different, and there are plenty of places where someone can record, and I can choose to let my personal political views guide my choices of which beliefs I will service and which I won't. But then again, it seems that so many of my colleagues represented here would turn away these voices - so perhaps there isn't anyone else with the courage to print Voltaire's work despite the reaction it may receive from the Dauphin.

And it doesn't matter to me that the money raised might be used for a pro-life campaign.
Would it matter to you if the money were being used to fund free abortion services? Would you then accept the job? Even though so many people in the country don't share that belief?

I would do it. Not because of the message, and not because I agree or disagree, but because I believe in messages being heard.

The truest test of your morals and beliefs isn't in how you choose to voice them, but in how (and whether) you allow others to do the same.

-Jeremy

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Post by thethingwiththestuff » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:49 pm

fair enough, i like your printing press comparison. that's probably the most apt so far.

however, with democratization of media comes her ability to publish a website, publish a pamphlet, organize through email/messageboards, or record herself. also, her viewpoint has plenty of money behind it already, and i feel like you're overlooking the "false equivalence of balance." just because there are two sides to something, doesnt mean one or either is necessarily valid.

i cannot separate the message from the medium.

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Post by Professor » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:05 pm

thethingwiththestuff wrote:i feel like you're overlooking the "false equivalence of balance." just because there are two sides to something, doesnt mean one or either is necessarily valid.
In reference to what? Two sides of the potential views of the artist like pro-abortion, anti-abortion? or in reference to the engineer accepting or not accepting the session?
however, with democratization of media comes her ability to publish a website, publish a pamphlet, organize through email/messageboards, or record herself.
True enough, but not everyone is gifted artistically in all these areas. And a singer may desire to only have to be a singer while leaving the task of web-design, publishing, or recording to un-biased professionals in this area.
also, her viewpoint has plenty of money behind it already
So does the viewpoint she opposes, but it doesn't mean that she has the money to build her own studio. And a movement's bankroll wouldn't change my decision on whether to service them or not. Hell, GreenPeace has a lot of money, the NAACP has a lot money, the DNC has way too much money, and I would still service their organizations if they came looking for my services regardless of how much it might pain some people to know their tax-supported facilities are being used to host such groups.

-Jeremy

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Post by thethingwiththestuff » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:01 pm

Professor wrote:Who is the hate-monger? The artist or the engineer who tells them to go away because he doesn't agree with their ideas?.....

I would do it. Not because of the message, and not because I agree or disagree, but because I believe in messages being heard.

The truest test of your morals and beliefs isn't in how you choose to voice them, but in how (and whether) you allow others to do the same.
these are all totally valid points, nothing i'd flat out disagree with. to me though, this is where false equivalence confuses the principle of letting messages be heard, in particular, isolated cases such as this one. the fact that we have this debate, the fact that there are people out there crusading for this particular issue, means that there are people on the "other side" of the issue, some who will not participate in it on any level, that now have to defend their belief that a possibly life altering medical procedure is not the state's business, and that women do not have to answer to their husbands like children. i dont want to use an inflammatory example here, i think you get my drift. maybe intelligent design is an appropriate comparison, but i dont want to gang up on christians.

and i certainly dont mean to hijack or join a gang up on you. i turned down a gig from a cousin who wanted to record a christian themed 9/11 song, i just couldn't do it. i've been actively thinking about this dilemma lately....

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Post by theBaldfather » Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:42 pm

This is good discussion. As a Christian, I've been faced with this issue from time to time too. Not in regards to recording non-Christian bands, but bands that actively defy what i believe is right. I appreciate you all understanding the idea of standing for what you believe.

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Post by Professor » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:11 pm

theBaldfather wrote:This is good discussion. As a Christian, I've been faced with this issue from time to time too. Not in regards to recording non-Christian bands, but bands that actively defy what i believe is right. I appreciate you all understanding the idea of standing for what you believe.
I think this has been a very intriguing conversation as well - in case you couldn't tell from all my posts. It got me thinking that I probably need to actually craft a policy statement to this effect, run it past the faculty, legal offices, and diversity center and publish it at least on the studio website. It would have to be something to cover us on both ends, both in stating that we would not turn away anyone based on gender, ethnicity, religion, political views, etc. but where we would reserve our right to deny or terminate sessions for individuals who aren't properly prepared for their sessions or who are destructive or abusive to the students, staff or facility.

Oh, that just brought up a curious twist to the dilemma. Ignoring the abortion issue because the members of the board may have strong opinions on both sides, let's consider a group we might all agree to dislike - perhaps the KKK or something similar. If you were in a no-exclusions on that basis studio, but really felt strongly about not wanting the project under your roof, but also had some fear of retribution or reprisal from the group, would it be alright to just lie to them and say, "I'm sorry but I don't think you guys are prepared well enough for a session" or even just "I'm too busy for that kind of huge session, why don't you call around to some other folks?"
Probably lame, since I'm sure lots of us have lied to get out of working with a particular person or group so it certainly isn't as much of a dilemma. But since doc's original post explained that he felt good about being honest about his reasons for not working with her, it kinda makes me curious about what might be so bad about just saying something else to get out of it.

-J

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Post by theBaldfather » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:02 pm

it kinda makes me curious about what might be so bad about just saying something else to get out of it.

I've been tempted to do that a few times. It does seem to kindof defeat the purpose of taking a stand though. If you believe in something strongly enough to deny someone based on that belief, it would seem that integrity would demand that you risk the backlash as well. While I don't agree with Doc's opinion, I can respect him for acting out his convictions.

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Post by doc » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:36 pm

If you recorded a concept album about revisionist history (that the Holocaust never happened) performed in earnest by a neo nazi band at Central do you think the school would be okay with you putting it's name in the liner notes? Okay, let's even take out the revisionist history part. Let's say you got a bunch of hicks (I'm sure there are more than a few where you're at) that just wanted to come in and make record a funny song about lynching a black man, killing Matthew Shephard, or raping an intoxicated woman?

Do you think the school would have a problem with your name in the liner notes, seeing as you're not just associated with this public institution of higher learning, but employed by them?

I think, after reading your quote from the school about how it doesn't discriminate, that that could be a problem. So explain to me how it's okay to record the session, but the school wouldn't want its name, and probably not want your name on it?

The city I work for absolutely does not want it's name on the Anti-choice girl's CD because then it looks like the city and parks and recreation department not only condone, but encourage her beliefs.

There's a difference between "Piss Christ" and raising money with "Piss Christ" to burn down churches.

-Doc

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Post by Professor » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:31 am

Let's say I had girl show up that wanted to make a CD of songs that she planned to sell in order to raise money in support of Planned Parenthood?
I probably don't have to ask if you would turn her away, but I can't be so presumptious. I would expect that you wouldn't because you agree with the cause, but I may be mistaken. If so I'm sorry. BUT more importantly would the city of Seattle want their name on that CD?
If I have the Catholic charity project in, I'll have you on the phone complaining to my boss about wasting your tax dollars.
If I have the Planned Parenthood project in, I'll someone else on the phone complaining.
If I have any other group in, somebody's going to complain.
Hell, I've had students who never used the studio complaining that they heard from a friend that I was planning to buy a couch for the studio.
I have it, and it's a really fuckin' nice couch - Ferrari red leather, hell yeah!
Point is, there's no way I'm going to stop people from complaining unless I turn everyone away. If I do nothing but instrumental music, someone will complain. If I record Strauss or Wagner I might get complaints from Israelli students. Hell if I record too many students I get complaints from faculty, too many faculty I hear it from the students, too many outsiders I hear it from the whole Music School, and on and on and on.
Atctually, I haven't had anything dramatic in a while, I hope the boss doesn't think I'm slacking.

Back on track...
Out here I had these discussions very early on in a different sort of way. I wanted the legal department to help me draft a statement of copyright ownership which made certain that the artists retain all their ownership of their recordings and that the school would not try to claim ownership as they do with patents or other research and authorship occuring around campus. My argument actually was that this studio would be open to all people of all views, and if we had some death-metal band or gangsta rap group in then the school would probably not only not want ownership, but would probably not want their name attached. Same argument was given to the marketing folks who wanted the full academic logo on every product.
And hey, if I've got a bunch of guys who want to sing songs about lynching, date rape or other such attrocities, wouldn't you prefer that I record the material and turn it over to the departments that are better equipped to deal with such concerns? Or should I just send them back to the next kegger?

And for as much as it bugs me to come back to this when I've been trying to not keep harping on the specific case of this girl you turned down, but I find it really makes me consider the false equivalency question up a little ways. Do you think that someone who believes that abortion is wrong is as evil as a bunch of Klansmen in a lynch mob? I mean this girl thinks killing babies is wrong, right? That's her detestable crime? These other guys think killing non-whites is OK? Hell what would happen if I had a bunch of KKK guys in here to do a fund raiser to support free abortion clinics in the inner city because they figure they can encourage minorities to wipe themselves out? Or does it just make your head hurt too?

Either way... tangent... sorry... back on track...
I think I should be able to choose whether or not my own name appears on any work that I do. That's my right of association.
I think the school should be able to choose whether its name appears on any work that I do. That's their right, and they have entrusted the day-to-day decisions to me.
I also think it is the obligation of the state to defend the free speech of every citizen.

And before there are any more examples of nazis or rapists or any other crap that most of us will agree is highly contemptious, why not try on an example that you feel REAL STONG about allowing in your studio.
I might presume the example of a CD to promote Planned Parenthood would be a good example. And I wouldn't turn them away... would you?
Anti-gay hate mongers at the Boy Scouts? Damn right they'd be welcome here, but would you have them in?
A bunch of gay cowboys making a CD to support AIDS research? Always welcome here... what about your place?
A bunch of gay cowboys making a CD to support NAMBLA? I'd be turning their names over to Child Protective Services & the FBI, but they'd be welcome to drop by - hell the CD might make for good evidence.
What about a revisionist historian making a spoken word disc about how Oswald was a lone gunman?
Or a revisionist historian making a spoken word disc about how Oswald was a patsy used to hide a huge and far-reaching conspiracy.
Or someone who wishes to tell about how Reagan was the greatest president who ever lived?
Or someone else who thinks Reagan was satan incarnate.

Somewhere in there are concepts with which I might strongly disagree, but which aren't hate mongering, or threatening to those who might disagree, or even necessarily bad for the image of the school.
Look at a school like the University of Colorado at Boulder and their reaction to Ward Churchill's praise of the 9-11 terrorists. National evening news anchors from every political side thought he should be fired. People were actively researching to see if he could be charged with treason. They even found out that he lied about his ethnicity claiming to be Native American when he was hired. And there he is... still teaching.

-Jeremy

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Post by trodden » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:15 am

Professor wrote:LeEither way... tangent... sorry... back on track...
I think I should be able to choose whether or not my own name appears on any work that I do. That's my right of association.
I think the school should be able to choose whether its name appears on any work that I do. That's their right, and they have entrusted the day-to-day decisions to me.
I also think it is the obligation of the state to defend the free speech of every citizen.
ummm and that is exactly what Doc did.

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Post by theBaldfather » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:28 am

doc wrote: The city I work for absolutely does not want it's name on the Anti-choice girl's CD because then it looks like the city and parks and recreation department not only condone, but encourage her beliefs.

There's a difference between "Piss Christ" and raising money with "Piss Christ" to burn down churches.

-Doc


In an age of tolerance, it seems like it's not very well distributed. You can believe whatever you want, but a city turning down a girl who happens to disagree with public policy* is a little much. Would they turn down an animal (animal, not human) rights group? They both believe in saving something that some people find more useless than others. Don't hide behind a city to defend your own beliefs. "Anti-choice" is an inflammatory but misleading term, since both sides are fighting for a choice; One for the mother's (who's had the opportunity to make plenty of choices) and one for the baby's. As far as rasing money with "piss Christ" to burn down churches... while I appreciate your enthusiam, I think that this comparison lands a little foul of any real comparison to a girl that sings to raise money for what in essence is a free-speech protected, political demonstration.

I think what in this case it really comes down to is that you work for a publicly owned facility. If you had your own studio, you would have every right to turn whoever you wanted to away, but since you made the choice to work for something that is attempting to serve all of the public,and since nothing she's doing is breaking any law, you have the obligation to record her. If I as a Christian, was working at a state-run facility, and I turned down a pro-choice artist, you can believe that the backlash would be immediate, and rightly so.

*edited out of respect for both sides
Last edited by theBaldfather on Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by chris harris » Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:22 am

I'm calling bullshit on most of the arguments on this thread.
almost everyone is just arguing their side of the pro/anti-choice/babykilling/etc...

calling it "anti-choice" is no more inflamatory, even less so, in my opinion, than calling something "killing" when the courts and the mainstream medical community don't see it that way.

but, the point of the thread is, if you work for yourself, pick and choose your clients however you see fit. you have no obligation to facilitate their free speech.

if you work for another company or the government, follow their policy regarding choosing clients.

doc didn't prevent her from recording. he didn't even prevent her from recording in the studio where he works. he just respectfully (imo) declined to participate himself.

end of story. everything else is just stupid political jabs.

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Post by theBaldfather » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:33 am

Point taken. I'll save my political leanings for a board that's designed for it. Wish you all the best.
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Post by Knights Who Say Neve » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:46 pm

It seems like there are a couple of ways to go here.

One is to use the "common carrier" arguement, i.e. "I'm like the phone company, I don't care what people say on the phone and I'm not responsible for what they say". This arguement doesn't really hold up though, because of the high amount of personal contact and involvement needed to do a good recording.

Another is to use the "personal service" arguement- i.e. "this is a service relationship and both sides need to be comfortable". Personally I lean to this side. Then the question becomes, "does this person make me so uncomfortable that I can't do a good job?" If so, then turning down their work is the right thing to do, for both sides. If I ever turn down work for this reason, though, it would require some soul-searching- which is what this thread is about. So in this case the original poster did the right thing, in my view- he turned down the work, and thought seriously about why he turned it down. Professor, you're making more of a "common carrier" (or "printing press") arguement, and in your situation, that makes sense. I just don't see how you could do a good job for, say, a racist skinhead band. You must be very cynical, or have a near-fanatical devotion to Libertarianism.
"What you're saying is, unlike all the other writers, if it was really new, you'd know it was new when you heard it, and you'd love it. <b>That's a hell of an assumption</b>". -B. Marsalis

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Post by Professor » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:25 am

Knights Who Say Neve wrote:You must be very cynical, or have a near-fanatical devotion to Libertarianism.
Yes, and yes.

Well, I'm more of a fiscal conservative and social libertarian wrapped up in a fun-lovin' constitutionalist. But you're close.

You ever see that bumper sticker that says, "If you like the first amendment, you'll really love the second?" That's my kinda humor.

-J

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