about overloading drums to tape.

[thereminman]

Ok, so i'm doing some test recordings of some drums--trying to get the right mic in the right position...all that good stuff, when I remember, the good folks on the TapeOp message board sometimes talking about really pushing tape past it's limits. I hear some people writing about how they just pin those needles, they never leave the red etc etc.----
So, after getting together what I thought was a very useable sound, I decided to give that Maximum Level Drum thing a try.
I pushed up the snare mic and the bass drum mic til my average level (we're talking VU meters here...the kind with needles) were mostly in the red and sometimes pinning.
{in fact, it may help you all to understand my situation if you know that I'm recording onto 1/2 inch reel to reel---a Teac 80-8, and using Quantegy 456 tape}
Well, the end of the story is: the bass drum sounded 'ok'..but no *better* than it had at a more reasonable level, and the snare sounded awful....it sort of phfzzzzzt out----all torn-papery sounding.
(also may help to know that I usually consider a 'reasonable' level to be around 0 (where the black meets the red) with an occassional peak hop a bit into the red +2 i think it is)
Any comments?
Was I doing anything wrong to get that elusive righteous saturated tape sound?
Thanks for any info!
---thereminman

[Jay]

Hmm. I routinely do 3-mic drums (kick, snare, overhead) and saturate the snare, so it's a SPLAT! and just mix it in quietly. I use 456 on a 1" 16-track.

Maybe it's just that your snare doesn't lend itself to that sound. Mine's pretty unusual-sounding, it's kind of a 70s muted-out thing. I've tried saturating tape with more modern, high-pitched drums and it sounds more deliberate, not something I'd want to use often. Neither does it work with every kind of music.
It's really worth experimenting though- when there's a fill and the toms break up, I love it.

Take THAT, Pro Tools!
I mean... just kidding. I use a DAW too.

[joel hamilton]

What tape? what machine? what are you cal'd to?

I have used GP9 on an otari MTR90 and had the output electronics crap out before hearing anything beneficial.

I have printed STUPID hot to my old MCI jh10 16 track 2" at 15 ips and had the drums sound insanely up front and still punchy, even at +9 on 456! really beefy snare, with a little loss on top, but so much AC/DC beef to it that i didnt care.

I have printed drums pretty hot, like consistently hitting three LED's on the studer, and had it get a little squishy around the edges and backed off a hair.

In my experience, a good compressor on the room mics, TO tape, helps me get those track SCREAMING, without the transient overload to the electronics surrounding the tape.

Just annoy the drummer and have him play for a while while you print all over the VU and see what is working best for the project.

[heylow]

I dont know that I can be of much help as I am in Digital Land here and I havent ever used that deck, but I DO know that some "lower grade" machines' electronics will overload and get junky way before the cool tape stuff happens.

This is, by the way, one of the reasons I hate it when people assume that the "analog sound" is something that comes from anything with tape.

That last bit isnt directed at anybody, BTW....just thinking out loud




heylow

[joel hamilton]

Agreed with Heylow...

And to further that thought with one of my own, I would say that anyone assuming tht ANY sound comes from ANYthing, exclusive to itself and not the ears and tastes of the person running it are mistaken.


(i just re read that, and i realised how shitty a writer i am... sheesh. Glad I am not deaf....yet).

[Bear]

For whatever it's worth, I love drums run through tape at extreme levels. "Slow Nerve Action" is one of my favorite drums sounds of all time, and it's been this terrible influence on me. Gotta love the Lips. And I just used the word extreme in casual conversation, which is fantastic.

[djimbe]

This weekend I've been helping some guys track on GP9 on a 3M M79 2" 16 track. It's cal'ed at +9 (close anyway. The beast is old and a bit tempermental at that level). Some of the drums have been much in the red, by setup and also because the drummers hit hard (good though...). Sometimes it works, and others it don't. Seems the best hot drum takes are the ones with the kit in isolation, rather than live room. Though that hot live room sound was cool and washy on the thing they just finished, a BLARING loud 2 guitar power chord thing. Joel is WAY right about the compression on roomish mics, though that may be one reason the live room kit was SO alive. And, yeah, that GP9 can sure take a beating. It's a form of compression, right? It's cool. Be careful, and try to use it's powers only for good...

[heylow]

Be careful, and try to use it's powers only for good...

....or for AWESOME!


Strong Bad, anyone?


heylow

[E-cue]

Knowing your calibration and tape speed would help. 15 ips at +9 on 456 should be fine. The think about this technique is knowing when to use it. Tape compression isn't the be all end all of compression as cool as it is sometimes.

[joel hamilton]

Wow,

you are getting +9 out of a 3m?

Are you using oven mitts to change reels? is track one completely see-through from scouring?

Those little 3m machines and their weird transports are funny. I tracked some good records to one of those, and learned really fast not to print ANYTHING to the edge tracks.

Do you have that big ass locator thing or the little LARC looking one with the umpire clicker locate thingy...

Wow, I havent used a 3m in a long time.

[djimbe]

It's close to +9. The overbias at that level is what gets a little squirrely, and there is a handwritten note on the documentation that sez somethin about not going too far past +7, but we kinda ignore that. It does seem to erase pretty well, except on super hot tracks.

The only problem I've ever had with edge tracks is 499 shaving a touch on 16. Soundguy Dave talked once about some 499 being slit a touch wide, so that's what I chalked that up to. Hasn't happened recently on the GP9 folks have been coming in with. Doesn't happen with 911 either, and the last time I put a reel of that up, I didn't recal; just watched level going in and it sounded great. Our Tech hooked up a separate internal fan to keep all the cards cool so it doesn't run super hot.

We have the little locator, and I don't like it much, but it does work. I wouldn't necessarily call the deck small though - it's almost as big as my stove! You work with Tony, right Joel? If you know any of Califone's work, they track on this machine at +9 with 499 all the time. "Roomsound" sounds cool to me, but I'm understandably a bit biased about my partner's work...

[MoreSpaceEcho]

are you guys routinely tracking kick hot to tape? it sounds like hell when i do it. i normally use a closed front head with just one mic in front so i'm trying to get all the attack i can out of that sucker. hitting tape hard just turns it to mush. i recently did a couple songs with a hole in the front head and a d112 right in front of the hole. sound was a lot more "attack-y" so i figured i'd hit tape harder, but this sounded like crap too. i have an otari mx5050, +6@250 (i think...i'm such a bad engineer ), GP9. i would say it might be the electronics crapping out, but it sounds fine tracking room mics stupid hot...

thanks
-scott

[@?,*???&?]

Alignment is the way to 'hit tape hard' not slamming the meters...

[joel hamilton]

That is actually a really good point that I am glad jeff mentioned:

ALIGNMENT, not pushing it to the pegs.

[miamidevice]

We have the little locator, and I don't like it much, but it does work. I wouldn't necessarily call the deck small though - it's almost as big as my stove! You work with Tony, right Joel? If you know any of Califone's work, they track on this machine at +9 with 499 all the time. "Roomsound" sounds cool to me, but I'm understandably a bit biased about my partner's work...

If you ever have problems with that machine you might want to get in touch with Bill Skibbe at Key Club Recording (www.keyclubrecording.com) in Benton Harbour, MI. He is obsessed with those 3M machines and seems to keep in close contact with a lot of people who use them or have parts for them. I remember him spinning a yarn about tracking down a retired 3M tech (or maybe it was a rep?) who had a treasure trove of NOS headstocks and other vital parts. Anyway, Bill's a tech genius and can hook you up if you have trouble. A sweetheart to boot.

m.