help me get into analog tape

[Harry]

I need some help....I want to get into working with tape. I figure the best way to start out is with a 2 track to mix down to.

What are some good makes/models that I might be able to find out there?

Are there any places other that ebay to shop for these things?

Thanks for any input
Harry

[mingus2112]

Funny topic (not really). Funny for me though. . . .

I started recording on 4 (and track cassette and quickly moved to 8 track tape (tascam 388). This was around 1993. Little did I know that weird things were going to happen in the industry. That was about the time that the ADAT became popular (Pro Tools still wasn't the "in thing" for recording. . .just the industry standard editing system. . .that neither I nor anyone I knew could afford [no LE system yet). I quickly moved to ADAT, decided that it was less noisy than tape (well. . .less noisey than the 1/4" 8 track 388) and therefore digital was better. Big mistake. I did digital for years until I finally tried to get back to tape a few years ago. We got a Tascam TSR8 and a nice big analog board. Trouble is, what the hell do I know anymore? The point of all this is coming. . .I promise.

In my experience, the best way to "get into tape" is not to seek out its benefits. Sure you get a "warmer" sound on tape. Sure drums break up real cool. Sure guitar and bass compress and sound amazing on the right machine. But before you seek out all of those things, try to emulate what you're doing digitally right now (assuming you're recording already on computer or whatever). Try to get the same sounds. . .the same results. . .you'll quickly learn tape's limitations and strengths. Once you can create a real clean recording that sounds close to your digital stuff. . .try pushing the drums into the red. . .SLAM bass down to the tape. . .do whatever you were looking for in tape. That's my advice.

ALSO. . .don't expect miracles. Not sure what kind of tape machine you have (or are going to get), but an 8 track 1/2" machine isn't going to compress the same way a 2" 16 track will.

I think you mentioned a 2 track. I guess you have one already? Try mixing down with similar results to your "in the box" mixdowns. See what happens!

-James

[r0ck1r0ck2]

can you compare the compression between the 1/2" 8 and the 2" 16?

[Harry]

Funny topic (not really). Funny for me though. . . .



Nice info.......thanks....but........it doesn't really relate to my questions

[r0ck1r0ck2]

ok...you want an excuse to get into tape...
watching the reels spin...
one of my favorite things in the world...
really it just looks like heaven to me...

[I'm Painting Again]

most really heavy duty pro tape machines will cost you a grand or so just to ship..and it will probably break more than it already is on the way to you as a special treat..then you need a set of special tools, calibration tapes, the technical knowledge to make the routine maintenance..its not as simple as you might think to do it right..so be prepared for your life to suck for a while as your getting into it..I took me 9 months to get my first machine running..a two track for mixdown..

[mingus2112]

Nice info.......thanks....but........it doesn't really relate to my questions

Fair enough. . .though the topic was "Help me to get into. . ." I figured you could use that information. Re-reading your original post, though, I guess you're looking for something to buy. My suggestion would be something like Tascam or Teac. Look for something with balanced ins and outs (my TSR8 doesn't have that. . .although it's an easy fix). Otari is GREAT as well, but machines aren't as cheap and are harder to find at a good price.

And you know. . .reading your post a THIRD time. . .to make sure i addressed all of your questions. . .i guess I didn't answer it at all! SORRY!

Other than ebay, i'm not sure where you would look (maybe try posting a WTB on the buy/sell forum here?). I think the first place to start would be making sure there's a tech in your area that can give the machine a "tune up." I'm fairly confident that any calibration done before SHIPPING a tape machine would be "lost in the mail."

can you compare the compression between the 1/2" 8 and the 2" 16?

Well. . .not to get off in a rant (and hijack a thread) but the track width on the 16 track 2" is twice as much as the 1/2" 8 track. I think of it like guitar pickups. A humbucker is physically TWO single coils. It's not twice as loud, but has a MUCH MUCH hotter output. It breaks up differently than a single coil. If you turn up the volume on the amp to match volumes between the single and humbucker you'll find the humbucker's a much more compressed and overdriven sound. This is VERY similar to tape.

Hope this helps!

-James

[Harry]

most really heavy duty pro tape machines will cost you a grand or so just to ship..and it will probably break more than it already is on the way to you as a special treat..then you need a set of special tools, calibration tapes, the technical knowledge to make the routine maintenance..its not as simple as you might think to do it right..so be prepared for your life to suck for a while as your getting into it..I took me 9 months to get my first machine running..a two track for mixdown..

was it worth it?

[r0ck1r0ck2]

thanks mingus...

[I'm Painting Again]

most really heavy duty pro tape machines will cost you a grand or so just to ship..and it will probably break more than it already is on the way to you as a special treat..then you need a set of special tools, calibration tapes, the technical knowledge to make the routine maintenance..its not as simple as you might think to do it right..so be prepared for your life to suck for a while as your getting into it..I took me 9 months to get my first machine running..a two track for mixdown..

was it worth it?

its always worth learning something new, for me anyway..I couldn't have done it myself either..I had help from older guys, Brian Roth who is now our DIY forum moderator and other people..i had to be resourceful enough to find these people and get them to help..I had to be willing to take a risk on a machine..i had to figure out how to do it cheaply since I had no money at the time..one of the best things is to find a machine locally as to avoid shipping..

If you think its going to give you some kind of very special sound that you cant get with digital recording thats probably wrong..it's different, true, every machine and every tape stock has a sound, etc..both formats have benefits and drawbacks..Its not going to magically make you great at recording..

I use my Ampex440b stereo 1/4"or 1/2" convertable now sometimes to mix to and sometimes I dont..it depends on whats going on and how it sounds..sometimes its right for a mix and sometimes its MUCH better not use it at all..

I think maybe if I payed a ton of money I might think it wouldn't be worth it(functionally in the studio)..but since I was patient and did it all on the cheap (500$ maybe for the machine, MRL tape, tools, etc,) and took it slow it was..I could put a lot more $$ into that machine, new heads, electronics cards, etc..but I probably wont for some time down the road..

A much wiser investment for the home studio person very well may be quality ADC/DAC..but to each his/her own you know..

[A-Barr]

Just my 2 cents:
Do NOT expect great results from the home versions sold in the 70's with unbalanced inputs, like Akai, etc., I've got one and the noise these things produce far outweghs any desirable distortion or compression they may cause, which ain't much.
To get a good tape machine and get the sound everyone talks about, it's going to take a lot of time and/or money. Not to mention studio space and the cost of tape and maintenance. I'd look into the Empirical Labs Fatso - skip the headaches and spend the same amount of money and you'll get a killer piece of gear that'll probably give you what you want and will never need to be calibrated, cleaned, freight-shipped, etc.
But if you're willing to put in the time and money, go for it, I don't want to discourage you, just give you another option.
Good luck!

[r0ck1r0ck2]

now if they'd only make a fatso that had spinning reels...

[xonlocust]

can you compare the compression between the 1/2" 8 and the 2" 16?

Well. . .not to get off in a rant (and hijack a thread) but the track width on the 16 track 2" is twice as much as the 1/2" 8 track. I think of it like guitar pickups. A humbucker is physically TWO single coils. It's not twice as loud, but has a MUCH MUCH hotter output. It breaks up differently than a single coil. If you turn up the volume on the amp to match volumes between the single and humbucker you'll find the humbucker's a much more compressed and overdriven sound. This is VERY similar to tape.

also not to get off on a rant or hijack, but the amount of "tape compression" has to do with your procedure for using the machine, not the tape width. how is the machine biased and calibrated, what tape are you using, more importantly how hot are you sending the signal in... they (track width) are related sure, but i think to the casual reader not knowing about analog recording, your initial statement might be a bit misleading. perhaps preface with, "when operating your tape machine in a manner to give you tape compression" if that makes sense. perhaps the two machines will give differening results when operated to give tape compression, but at that point there are a ton of other factors going on anyway. i mean to say - just because you are using a tape machine, doesn't neccesarily mean you are getting "tape compression" as people commonly say.

soundguy dave has had some really interesting posts about custom biasing his machines for what sounds good to his ears.

or maybe I'M just being too analytical about it and worrying about semantics too much.

this is a big can of worms. there's so much out there to learn about this stuff. i still feel like i'm just touching the tip with what i know... fortunately there are some really smart/generous old school guys willing to share thier knowledge with us kids.

i'd say you have a much better signal to noise ration on 2" 16 than 1/2" 8. that much is for sure. and the electronics (of the original new condition) were probably much better than a 1/2" 8 (same conidtion), but then again, we're in a whole different world now since it's all old. then consider the condition etc.

i wouldn't buy any tape machine these days unless i knew the exact history and where it's been in use and have it checked out by a tech first. i'm closing in on buying machine #3 for me.

[joel hamilton]

I think everyone HAS been helpful in this thread, including mingus's's post up at the top. Very true stuff there.

To answer your question directly:

Studer, MCI, Otari. Those are the three I would look for personally.

A great recording sounds great because someone made a great recording,not because of analog tape.

Have fun. Tape is fun, for sure, and a useful tool... oh, and it used to be the standard format we all used to make recordings...

Some people will grouch for hours and hours about tape/digital/kids/ calculators... all kinds of crap. Get something that makes you happy and inspires you to make the best recordings you can. Ignore the grouchy knuckleheads of the world... hit record.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

yep...
and watch those reels spin...