DVD Backups from Sonar

[Jeremy Garber]

I used bundle files in the past, but you should really stay away from them. They can get corrupt, rendering your mix and audio data useless. Plus, you have to unpack it all before you can do anything with it. Now I use per project folders. Basically, each song gets its own folder. Inside that folder goes the project file(s), and in a subfolder goes all the song's audio. This way it is all still seperated for easy transfer to other places, without being mixed with any other song data. You will also run into a problem when you mix gets over one or two gigs in size (very easy to do when you mix with 24bit/48khz audio). Sonar can't handle file sizes that large, and gives an error when trying to bundle a project that big. I use Sonar 4, and had this problem.

[LeedyGuy]

Yep. . .I love Sonar. What drem me to it in the first place was it's feel of a real recording environment. Using it over the years, the features added on have enhanced it.

As for the backups, I started this weekend. First I tried a project that I wasn't afraid to lose.

1) I switched to per project audio folders.
2) Saved all of the project files in a new folder
3) Deleted the original project files (and emptied my recycle bin)
4) Went to Tools -> Clean Audio Folder and found abandoned waves (which happened to be the ones associated with that project)

The project reopened fine! I did it on one other that I really need to keep, but am afraid to delete the old file! Guess they'll stay there for awhile!

-James

i was there. i saw it. it was awful pretty.

im going to start working on this BEFORE i run out of space instead of WHEN i run out of space.

[mingus2112]

Yeah. . .Ken was there and he saw it. For ONE PROJECT it took about 20 minutes! Good thing we were doing other reorganizing.

If you haven't gotten around to your housecleaning yet, use the "Consolidate Audio" feature. If your audio files on a given project are in folders with other audio files, this will copy the specific files to a new dedicated folder with just a mouse click.

The other advantage to per project is if a project crashes, you won't lose everything else too.

Tell me more about this feature. . .do you have to open the project file to do this? If so, then isn't it pretty much doing the same thing as saving the project file to a different location? Right now it copies all of the associated audio files into the new folder (when i have per project audio folders enabled).

-James

[percussion boy]

You will also run into a problem when you mix gets over one or two gigs in size (very easy to do when you mix with 24bit/48khz audio). Sonar can't handle file sizes that large, and gives an error when trying to bundle a project that big. I use Sonar 4, and had this problem.

Thanks for the heads up. Just setting up a 24 bit system for the first time, didn't realize this. The Per Folder dealie sounds like the way to go.

Why I stick with CAkewalk stuff: They usually provide a manageable way to do whatever you need to do.

[river]

James,

Since I've never used the bundle file approach, I don't have a point of reference for how many project files and audio files you can stuff into one place. I discovered the usefulness of Consolidate Audio after inheriting a project started at another studio. when I loaded the projects off the supplied DVD's, there were non-related folders and files with several of the needed files in the wrong places. I spent several hours trying to copy stuff into its own directory, etc..., I kept running into situations where Sonar would tell me it couldn't find certain files, I think because the original project files created by the other studio referenced these locations. I finally tried the Consolidate feature and just copied the project files for various mixes into the new folders. It took my per project housecleaning from 20 minutes down to 5 or less per song.

[Jeremy Garber]

Something else you can do to save a bit of space and resources while tracking/mixing, is to remove the silent areas in your mix. There is a menu option for this. Basically, it just deletes parts of tracks that are absolute 0. No sense in keeping that dead space around. It will give you the extra bump in resources you need, especially when mixing with 24/48. I dunno your PC specs, but I max out around 45 tracks, with a decent amount of plugs running. My system = AMD 3200 (2.2Ghz) / 3GB RAM.

[LeedyGuy]

I find the "remove silence" thing to be a pain in the ass because from what i recall (maybe i havent tried it since sonar 2) you have to set a noise floor type threshold and it takes forever for it to process the audio. has that changed?

[mingus2112]

I find the "remove silence" thing to be a pain in the ass because from what i recall (maybe i havent tried it since sonar 2) you have to set a noise floor type threshold and it takes forever for it to process the audio. has that changed?

I'm not really worried about it being a pain in the ass. I just know that it scares the crap out of me when it's done and my audio is chopped up!

[nlmd311]

First off, Thanks for this thread!!!
I have been a Cakewalk user for years now. Started with Pro Audio 9 (well, really Cakewalk Metro in school, then PA9), then moved up to SONAR 3 when I could afford and felt like I had completely conquered Pro Audio 9. Just when I think I knew a great deal about SONAR, I learn some more! This is awesome. I typically just throw up the tracks, label everything and go. Save as normal files and when it comes time to back up just back up everything. Never even realized that you could have individual project folders. Convenience and organization on a whole new level. I had read about this for version 5, but didn't know it was available earlier. Great stuff.

I find the "remove silence" thing to be a pain in the ass because from what i recall (maybe i havent tried it since sonar 2) you have to set a noise floor type threshold and it takes forever for it to process the audio. has that changed?

I've not tried the remove silence feature in SONAR. I have tried and used it a few times back in Pro Audio 9, but really didn't like it. Took a bit of time, and sometime I would lose more than just "absolute zero". Maybe I had the threshold settings a little skewed, but either way, I'd rather chop myself than leave it to the computer to do... ? I really enjoy the way you can shorten and chop clips, non-destructively in SONAR.
I feel even better about not upgrading to 4 or 5 now. 3.1.1 is still working great for me and obviously still have more to learn.

Thanks again for a great thread!

-Darrill

[river]

Another happy 3.1.1 customer here, been really stable and has all the bells & whistles I need for the foreseeable future.

[mingus2112]

First off, Thanks for this thread!!!

Thanks for replying! It's always great to start a thread that actually takes off and gets discussed! (even if you put it in the wrong forum!!)

Anyhow. . .yeah. The remove silence option scares me. I have been using cakewalk projects since High School. Version 3 or 4 i think? Back then it was only MIDI stuff. Fast forward to Sonar 1. I didn't even know it existed until Kentothink was looking for Studio software. I was suggesting things like Logic, etc (they used to have it for PC if you remember) but then they found Sonar. It was love at first click. We've pretty much gone through all of the revisions. Each revision makes things easier and easier. Hopefully i'll be able to back all of my data up safely and use per project audio folders from now on!

-James

[mingus2112]

Another happy 3.1.1 customer here, been really stable and has all the bells & whistles I need for the foreseeable future.

I'm on 4 at the moment. The thing I liked about 4 over 3 was the track folders. I've got 5, but i'm not going to install until I have all of my projects backed up and am ready to start fresh!

-James

[Jeremy Garber]

You shouldn't be scared of the remove silence command, lol. It's just another tool. Use it right and you'll be OK. It's kind of like setting a gate. You do need to set the noise floor, and then there is a look ahead and fade out options too I think. I always listened to my mix afterward to make sure that only the parts I wanted were gone. That command has really helped with some mixes I'm doing for a video game. I got close to 45 tracks on each song, but there are many small parts, so lots of silent areas. I believe you can undo it if you need, and you can always save multiple versions of your mixes for safe keeping. Just make a copy of that project's audio folder real quick before doing the remove silence, if that will make ya feel better.

I've been using Cakewalk since Home Studio 6 - about 10 years. Wow! I've always loved the way the program was layed out. I love the track folders in v4, but wish you could nest folders, and place busses in folders of their own as well. I'm looking forward to 5.

[earl parameter]

the Per Project Audio option is the shit, but i use a separate folder for every song that contains its own audio folder anyway. yes i have to open up the global options and change it every time i switch songs but its sooo fucking worth it to not have the above problems. Everything is nice and clean, one song, one dvd ( i have lots of tracks sometime over 80 stereo and keep everything).

if you are doing it any other way you are lost. ive been doing this anyway since V.7 after making a mess back on V. 5 in the old days.

no bundles no bullshit just the song's files in the song's folder

"Consolidate Audio" if I remember right just makes one big hard to store .wav file? i use it once and had that one huge file corrupt on me and then i had to cut it up the pieces manually and put the song back together. real pain the ass

not to argue with you sleepy, you and i usually agree on everything but remove silence will do nothing for size unless you actually cut the wav up into smaller pieces and apply it. the amount of volume in a wav doesn't have anything to do with its size silence is still 000000?s. and one global setting applied to a track doesn?t work well anyway. its just a shitty non-realtime gate.


"I really enjoy the way you can shorten and chop clips, non-destructively in SONAR" i know it wasn't said but just to be clear, this doesn't do anything for size either unless you apply the trim (right click on the wav). and yes it is a nice option. i believe its called "slip-editing"



cakewalk is not held in the same regard as the other apps because in the old days it was the cheap version that we home recordist?s used and it did in fact sound like shit compared to something like logic or DP. it was not until sonar v 4 that the audio engine could actually stand again the rest of the pack. sonar 3 sucked HARD something weird happened and it was a really bad engine.

edited

[Jeremy Garber]

I thought that removing silence did cut the actual wavs up. Perhaps it only does that in the view of Sonar. I have used it, and it has freed up resources within the project. I just thought it edited the actual wav files too. So really, that's a plus and a negative. It's good that it's nondestructive to the real files, but not an over all project size reducer. Good to know.

And you're right. A silent wav takes up as much file size as an audible one. That's why it's good to free the resources playing them. You don't need to hear the silence. It's just dead weight in your mix. Probably not a big deal for most people doing small mixes. When I have a few dozen tracks though, it's the difference between smooth playback and editing, and dropouts. It's all relative to the machine you're running on, but I think ya get the idea. It's the extra headroom you need, when you accidentally eat the wrong mushroom. I guess. heh