management vs. no management

[knobtwirler]

I am at a crossroads in my studio career. I started working to learn how to record and mix because I was a musician and didn't want a real job. Here I am almost 10 years later, able to record and mix, and I am sick of working on rap, r&b, gospel, and MTV pop, all genres of music I hated before and must admit I still hate now and refuse to torture myself through unless it is the right situation. So do I get a manager to get the right work for me and handle all the money issues I can't stand dealing with or do I just pretend that I love these forms of music and be a big phony and mix music I hate? Please share your experiences, advice, and pros and cons. I have people asking for my number to mix hip-hop, gospel, rap, and I reluctantly give it out hoping they never call me. If that's not the epitome of career dysfuncion I don't know what is. If I knew I was going to hate my job I would have gotten some college degree and searched for a six figure salary.
P.S. I know something is wrong because I've never heard of a rock engineer who wished he could get into rap and r&b.

[Professor]

Wow, I can't say can relate to this in any way but itis still kind of fascinating if also a bit unfortunate.
They say that if you take your passion and make it your career you'll never work a day of your life.
But then this is exactly the proof that the statement doesn't always ring true. Sometimes, when your passion becomes your career it just turns into work. Sure there are guys out there gritting their teeth and shaking their fist at your post because they fall over themselves to be getting 'too many calls for rap, hiphop and R&B projects'. I think if I could arrange it so I never recorded another crappy student recital, I'd be pretty happy. But for me the emphasis is still on the 'crappy' and not the 'student recital' part of the statement. If I could record Juilliard student recitals all the time, I think some of the passion for that genre might return, though I'm sure I would still get bored from it.
Indeed, there were two big factors for me when I was searching for a University recording gig. I like recording classical music and figured that since there's virtually no market to make a living doing that professionally that a University was the perfect place to get paid for recording classical. On the other hand, I knew I would get bored if I only recorded classical, and a University offered the possibility of also recording jazz, rock, rap, folk, funk, voice-overs, sound effects for theater, all the variety that most guys never really get in their careers. Of course, there's a trade off. I'm not likely to get my name on a label-released disc working here, and there ain't no chance of the Grammy folks calling. But if nobody shows up to record for a month or so, I'm still getting my salary.
You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have... a job.

As for management, I really couldn't say. I've thought about hanging out my shingle as an independent mixing engineer. Hell, I've got PTHD, a couple DM-2000s, a System 6000 reverb, and a 5.1 speaker array all neatly bundled in a Russ Berger room, and I am basically the sole proprietor. Problem is that I'm not even in the middle of nowhere... I'm out on the fringes of nowhere. Management could be useful for me too. Might be nice to have someone else beating the streets and giving good phone to find potential clients and then just calling me up to say, here's the gig, here's the deadline, here's your fee.
Boy that would be perfect.

-Jeremy

[3db@1K]

I am at a crossroads in my studio career. I started working to learn how to record and mix because I was a musician and didn't want a real job. Here I am almost 10 years later, able to record and mix, and I am sick of working on rap, r&b, gospel, and MTV pop, all genres of music I hated before and must admit I still hate now and refuse to torture myself through unless it is the right situation. So do I get a manager to get the right work for me and handle all the money issues I can't stand dealing with or do I just pretend that I love these forms of music and be a big phony and mix music I hate? Please share your experiences, advice, and pros and cons. I have people asking for my number to mix hip-hop, gospel, rap, and I reluctantly give it out hoping they never call me. If that's not the epitome of career dysfuncion I don't know what is. If I knew I was going to hate my job I would have gotten some college degree and searched for a six figure salary.
P.S. I know something is wrong because I've never heard of a rock engineer who wished he could get into rap and r&b.

In my experience Management does not get you work your work does. It is a huge catch22 in this business. If you are starting out in a new direction there is no work there for a manager to have incentive to work for you. When you do get going and have work coming to you, a manager does little to further careers. They just send deal memos and invoices for you..... Oh and take 15%

[davedarling]

You need to get your head out of your ass.

if you're supporting yourself in the music biz you're ahead of the game. If you're not doing exactly what you want - it's called PAYING YOUR DUES.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try to move your career in a particular direction, -
that's a great idea. You just work towards your goal, have some success, and get more selective over time.
I'm lucky enough to work at a pretty high level of the recording biz, and while
everything I work on might not be what I listen to at home, everything IS an opportunity to get better at my craft, and to make (hopefully) something better than when it got to me.
A manager can get you work based on your successes - if you don't have high profile work - they aren't going to do shit for you except contracts, negotiations, and run
interferance with the record companies.
If you go to any real management company, and tell them you'll only do prog rock , or jazz fusion (or whatever you do) it 'aint gonna go your way.

Sorry to seem so harsh, but it sounds like what you want is a hobby.

best - dave darling

[knobtwirler]

I think you're right. Everyone who makes it in this business seems to be following a different path, meaning they either only did the music they loved, their family gave them startup money to buy gear and/or a studio, or got lucky by getting a gig at the right place at the right time. I don't fall into any of those and I think I'm gonna just hang it up.

[Randy]

This one kinda throws me. On the one hand I am sure there are folks who are cheezed off that someone is "whining" about having too much work in the audio profession. On the other hand, if you are unhappy, you gotta make some changes because life is too short.

The thing I have to ask is, as an engineer why do you care what material comes in for recording? To me it sounds like you don't really want to be an engineer. It sounds like you want to be an artist. Are you frustrated because your end product doesn't represent some aspect of your asthetic? It certainly is no crime if that's the case. You just need to try and stake out as a producer or an artist yourself.

An engineer's job is to make someone happy with the recording they walk out with. There are people who live for this; making folks happy with their stuff, be it Gregorian chants or grindcore metal. It doesn't matter as long as the artist got their idea across. Whatever it takes.

What I do for my day job is design educational materials. It's a very collaborative job. You have writers, editors and yourself working together to create a lesson that's (supposedly) going to change some kid's world view. Whenever it gets to the point that I think something is ugly, but it finally got approved by the many layers of management, I tell myself that if I want something pretty that pleases me, I should go home, draw or paint something and hang it on the wall. If I want something that is going to teach a kid something they need to know, the input of people who have taught for years and people who have studied child development needs to be part of the final product. It doesn't look like something I'd have thought up, but it is damn sure gonna do its job.

Your head ain't up your ass, it's just looking over on the other side of the fence wondering if the grass is greener. It probably isn't, but it's worth checking out.

Oh yeah, 3db@1k is right. Managers are just about handling the workflow when you have too much of the right work. If you are thinking of a change, a manager is the last thing you need.

[Randy]

I think you're right. Everyone who makes it in this business seems to be following a different path, meaning they either only did the music they loved, their family gave them startup money to buy gear and/or a studio, or got lucky by getting a gig at the right place at the right time. I don't fall into any of those and I think I'm gonna just hang it up.

I take too long to write my answers to posts. Sorry about the cross post.

Don't hang it up. Find out what you want to do and do it. Even if you can only do it here and there, it's worth doing. Right place/right time only comes to those who are in some place at some time, eh?

Oh yeah, what is the meaning of "it" in "making it"?

art? money?

[knobtwirler]

Oh yeah, what is the meaning of "it" in "making it"?

art? money?

Awesome question since it tends to vary from person to person. I suppose "it" would be doing your job in a professional environment, not wondering what is going wrong in your career at the end of the day because you love what you do, and your paychecks afford you the freedom not to worry about whether your bills will be paid or your health will be put in jeopardy trying to make things work out. Have all that and be able to have your name uttered with recognition and respect among your peers, and I'd say you are making it. If you've invested many years of your life and finances and health become a factor, and nobody seems to know who you are, I'd say you haven't made it yet.

[TapeOpLarry]

But it always looks like someone else is making it while the "someone else" probably doesn't think they have.

Many people assume I am in a good position. I'm not so sure. I work way too much, don't get that many high profile album jobs per year, and am constantly under way too much stress. Is this making it? I'm proud of what I do, recording and mag-wise, but damn, some days I'd love to be back working part time in a pub and hiking/biking all my three day weekend!

Damn tired today, many more to go...

[Jim_Boulter]

Oh yeah, what is the meaning of "it" in "making it"?

art? money?

Awesome question since it tends to vary from person to person. I suppose "it" would be doing your job in a professional environment, not wondering what is going wrong in your career at the end of the day because you love what you do, and your paychecks afford you the freedom not to worry about whether your bills will be paid or your health will be put in jeopardy trying to make things work out. Have all that and be able to have your name uttered with recognition and respect among your peers, and I'd say you are making it. If you've invested many years of your life and finances and health become a factor, and nobody seems to know who you are, I'd say you haven't made it yet.

Of your first 3 criteria, you're good on 2. That's better than most people. And if I read it right, you're good on the added ones later - you have people coming to you because of recognition and respect, right? You just need to change enough to love what you do, or, more precisely, who you're doing it with. Go do a few free tracks with some of the folks you want to work with, change the image of what styles you do, and start loving it again.

[knobtwirler]

I'm proud of what I do,...

Yes! That's right up there! I'm glad you can be so tired and not look into the mirror and ask, "What am I doing to myself?". I used to be there but something happened and I had to re-prioritize so I wouldn't be dong vocal punches from the inside of a coffin.

Go do a few free tracks with some of the folks you want to work with, change the image of what styles you do, and start loving it again.

Good point. It's not so much what I do, but what most of my clients have me do. I was just discussing the idea that if someone told me ten years ago I'd be sitting in front of a computer screen now from 6-14 hours a day responding nervously to commands from someone behind me telling me to do all kinds of audio manipulations until I actually felt like George Jetson when I got home complaining about my push-button finger instead of "working with musicians and making records", I'd be terrified and choose another profession. When I actually do work with actual bands who play instruments instead of people who have me record 48 tracks of vocals to a 2-Track beat from a CD they just brought in, I can love what I do pretty easily. I actually go home and don't remember using a computer keyboard at all on those days. Well, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but no management then, huh?

[Professor]

Wait a minute, next thing you're gonna tell me that the nitwit that punched keys on the Triton to make dem phat beatz is gettin' da "pahdoosuh" credit while you're lucky to be listed in the deepest corner of the liner notes.
I don't much feel good about that George Jetson button-pushing-finger either.

Hey believe me, it gets to all of us sometimes. I have a full-time salaried job with benefits, retirement, over 352-hours of vacation saved up, an office, a phone, a staff of my own choosing, a million-dollar Russ Berger room, about half a million in gear & instruments, I'm the only engineer that works the space and the day starts and ends when I feel like it (mostly). If I complained about any of that around here, someone would make the damn 5-hour drive from Seattle just to beat me over the head with a crow bar. And yet I still sit here wondering about what other jobs are out there, occasionally even applying to other places. Sometimes I consider going back to finish that master's degree, or just packing it all up and going back to installation. Sure it's tough recording another damn junior recital with some kid who plays like a midi keyboard with a glitchy clock - or having someone ask me to edit together a recording they intend to use as an audition disc. But then sometimes I get to record some fabulous music - even classical music, the shit hardly anybody can build a career on.
And then I remind myself that this job wasn't well advertised when I found it, and still they had over 50 applicants. If they ran it now they'd have over a hundred.
To so many other guys out there, you and me and Larry, we're 'living the dream'. That's quite a bit of responsibility.

I don't know the specifics of your situation and life. I don't know if you get weekends off. I don't know if you attend church, have a family or any of that. I don't know if you own any of your own gear any more. But I'll offer a suggestion.
Get a nice pair of mics - maybe you've already got some... maybe some 414s or 4050s, or even U-87s or something extravagant.
Get a nice little 2-channel preamp. I've got a rig with an Aphex 207 which ain't spectacular but it's effective.
Get a masterlink. Have you seen how cheap those things are on eBay these days?
Put 'em in a case with some cables, a mic stand, a stereo bar or two, some headphones, etc.
Now get your ass out on the street and go record some live stuff.
If you've got kids, go to their school and make a CD of the band or choir or whatever.
If you go to church, go record the choir. If you don't go, then find a church and ask if you can make a free recording of their choir. Invoice them for your standard rate but discount it to zero and take the thing as a big friggin' tax write-off under the 'non-financial charitable contributions' category. Make them the best damn choir CD they've ever heard.
Or if you really want to go nuts, get yourself connected to a community choir or band or orchestra and start recording their stuff. Make some money by duplicating CDs or something (that's what I do), but mostly just bask in the glow of their delight at your involvement. Feel what it's like when that little old lady from the back row of the choir pats your cheek and thanks you for being there for them. Eat finger food with them at the reception afterward. Look at your name listed under the 'thank yous' section of the program.
I'm sure that never happens at the end of the rap sessions - and I've got a pretty good sense it won't happen much in pop, rock, or indie sessions either. Maybe an offer to go party afterwards, which could well be fun in its own way, but this is different.

Now I know classical, and especially bad classical, might not be your bag any more than rap & hiphop. You could try to pull in indie-rock bands, but you'll need the studio and that will cost money, and they won't want to pay that much, and it will just be a frustrating endeavor. Management may indeed be a good idea for bringing in more clients, but that won't necessarily bring in a better feeling about the recording - especially if you just find yourself sitting at the computer making guitar punches for 48-tracks of bad guitar riffs over 2-tracks of auto-tuned (or outta-tune) vocals for 6-14 hours a day. But if you find a local high-school band and offer to coach them for free every Saturday for the next three months to help them get ready to break into the industry, then maybe you'll have the kind of experience you're seeking.

Or maybe you could go be an accountant.

-Jeremy

[seaneldon]

if you're unhappy with the music you're recording...i'd say contact bands that you WOULD like to record. then when bands of their "genre" do research on recording studios, they might say "hey, i wonder where that one band recorded" and end up with you.

[knobtwirler]

I have a full-time salaried job with benefits, retirement, over 352-hours of vacation saved up, an office, a phone, a staff of my own choosing, a million-dollar Russ Berger room, about half a million in gear & instruments, I'm the only engineer that works the space and the day starts and ends when I feel like it (mostly). If I complained about any of that around here, someone would make the damn 5-hour drive from Seattle just to beat me over the head with a crow bar.

Careful or Darling will tell you take your head out of YOUR ass! But seriously about sticking my head in my ass, I'm just not that flexible. Man, I love you guys for giving me insight into what others think the problem is and what needs to be done, cause these feeling I get aren't a figment of my imagination.

[mertmo]

This is a tough subject, no doubt. I can totaly relate regarding doing music you are not interested in. I worked for years in a studio where I was just the salaried engineer, not able to make any decisions about clients. Taught me a hell of a lot, and when I wasn't learning any more I bailed. (several other reasons led to that...) Now I am at the same facility, but it is my business now and I control it. I still, from time to time, work on something that I don't really like because I want/need the money. And I hate it more every time I do it. I am getting to the point where I would rather only work with artists I like for free than make money. Luckily, it is not that black and white. I get to work with artists that I (mostly) really like, and I am finally making some money too. I'm not fully supporting myself with recording, I still have a part time day job.

I basically try to reconcile two seemingly opposing realities: 1) I would do this for free all the time if I had to because I fucking love doing it. It is really that simple. and,
2) I don't have to do it for free because it is a learned skill that is worth money and I would not be treating myself well if I did not charge for it. Plus I would be helping to devalue what that skill is worth in the marketplace. Having said that, I still decide to work for free or super cheap every once in a while when it's something I really want to do.
Two years ago I had to give it away for really cheap to a local band because I wanted to work with them so bad. Their guitarist had a studio and was already working on the album, so they were very reluctant to spend any money but they were interested in working with me. After several conversations to this effect, we were at a stalemate, and I just said "fuck it, I'll do it for free." They did end up paying me some money, certainly not what all my time was worth, but it didn't matter, I was so pleased with the experience I would do it again right now. I struck up a great new friendship with said guitar player, we made a great record together, he taught me a lot about protools that I didn't know already, and I taught him a lot about making records "the old way" which he had never done.

Doing that record helped the general "critical mass" of my word of mouth reputation where I live, and now a couple of years later, I generally have someone paying me something at all times to do some work. Like I said earlier, it doesn't pay all the bills, but it pays some of them and I am having the time of my life.

I will try to return to the subject now...
I am in an enviable position in that I can tell people "sorry, I don't do hip hop", or whatever. (actually, that is true I won't do hip hop, and mainly because I am not comfortable with a 'posse' in my studio. plain and simple. plus I've never used midi in my life and I am just the wrong guy for the job all the way around, even tho I like some hip hop a lot.)
I actually consider myself lucky at this point to have a day job that I like, it allows me to be as selective as I want with the artists I work with. And I would rather only do great records with cool artists, and have that pay off in the long run when hopefully my name will be a draw and I can make a real living off of it. I do not have to be concerned right now with feeding myself with the engineering and production.

I'm not exactly sure what my point is, maybe it's just to say you are not alone in trying to weigh all these things. They are strange decisions to try to make I think.
Maybe you really do just want a hobby. It's something to consider. What I have is a business, but it is still a hobby to a large degree and RIGHT NOW I like it that way, but I have to admit I want it to someday pay my bills and I want it on my terms. I am banking on a long term payoff instead of seeing returns on it right now. And if , in the long run, it is only a hobby partially because I am really selective, I am totally cool with that.
One thing's for sure, what this gentleman said is the truth with a capital T:

if you are unhappy, you gotta make some changes because life is too short.

Don't hang it up, though, whatever you do. If it brings you joy in any capacity, you should continue to do it. Do it for free, or do it once a year or whatever.

PS, nice to hear from Larry Crane on this issue. That's keeping it real, brother.