Need answers to power questions.

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honkyjonk
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Need answers to power questions.

Post by honkyjonk » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:02 pm

1. What's the difference between voltage regulation and line conditioning, if there is one?

2. Is it okay to run everything off of 1 outlet? (3 tube pres/ a couple small racks of about five pieces of solid state gear each. Yamaha PM1000 board. Nearfield powered monitors. couple tube guitar amps)

3. UPS units. I have 2 APC UPS units that I've been using. I just read on a gearslutz thread that they're a real tradeoff and can affect the sound in a bad way.
I'd like to hear others' opinions too.

4. If I got a reasonably good power conditioner, what do you guys think of plugging the UPS units into that? (running everything off of 1 outlet)

5.What is the first best thing a rentor w/ not much cash do to to attain a reasonably consistent voltage?

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centurymantra
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Post by centurymantra » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:25 pm

I'm not an expert on the topic but I have obsessed over this very issue in the past, more with my home audio than the current pro audio setup actually. My investigation, consultation and experimentation proved to be both confusing and enlightening. Keeping in mind that some of the sonic effects can be real hair-splitting, there are a few things I can suggest. One is that you really do not want to use a standard UPS unit on anything but your computer. These are typically not designed with audio gear in mind. It's possible that these companies are manufacturing uninterruptible power supplies geared towards audio systems, recording systems, etc. and this would simply require research. Also keep in mind that, for the most part, any type of conditioning does effect and/or color the sound and usually limits current. This makes it a trade off to some degree but a good power conditioner should ultimately enhance the sound as there is invariably a lot of noise on the line, RFI, EMI, etc. that's kicked in by all the digital equipment, appliances...both yours AND your neighbors really, and some filtration on that power should be a good thing. Then again, I know there are those that think conditioning is just a trade off and support pluggin' the shit right in the wall. The current limiting aspect is an issue, but is more significant with power amps and shouldn't be an issue with most front-end equipment. Certain conditioners are designed (for $$$ I might add) to absolutely not limit current though. Also, most surge protection is a fairly notable point of sonic degradation.

Once again, I admit that it gets to a point where you're splitting hairs and most folks would be hard pressed to give up the security of something like surge protection for the sake of what might be an illlusory 'sense of air' that's missing. There are some tweaky, high end forms of surge protection that do not use the standard MOV based unit and should be virtually transparent, but these are typically incorporated in gear that's impractically pricey. Sound Applications is one such company and I know that their units are used in some pretty high end recording and mastering studios.

I'd say the best thing to do is experiment. If you can afford it, a nice balanced power unit by someone like Equitech and BPT is is one of the best ways to go. If not that, a good isolation transformer based power conditioner is a great way to go as well. If you've got the ambition, a good isolation transformer setup can be DIY'ed,

Putting aside all the above rambling, I think the best and one of the cheaper things you can do is get a couple of 20amp (or more) dedicated lines installed. One for digital gear and one for analog. I've been thinking about doing this and going purist by plugging my gear into some ultra high grade power strips, star-wired with top notch outlets, RF resistant chassis, etc. that do not use filtration or surge protection. I wouldn't mind getting rid of those scrappy Furman things and free up rack space at the same time.

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centurymantra
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Post by centurymantra » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:34 pm

You know, I just read your post a little more closely and noticed that you're renting and it sounds like you've only got one outlet to work with which seems to render my above commentary as moot. Are you renting a house or an apartment? Are there other usable outlets?

P.S. I would still offer my $0.02 and recommend getting your recording stuff off the APC unit...keep your computer on it though.

honkyjonk
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Post by honkyjonk » Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:39 pm

Hey thanks,

Actually, I have probably 3 outlets to run things off of. But if I get some kind of ultra awesome balanced power unit or something, well, I'm sure as hell not gonna get 3 of them because of the price. So, that was my reason for asking about running things off of one outlet.

The same goes for some kind of conditioning unit w/ a huge transformer in it. Pricey again, so I'd likely only get 1 and run everything off of it.

Any ideas as far as unknown brands or places to score these kind of things used?

Anyway, if I get myself off of the UPS stuff, at the very least I guess I'd just go back to plain surge supressors. I don't know. It seems if I do nothing, or next to nothing (that is, w/ surge supression only) I might as well just get some cheapo rat shack surge supression because from what I've read researching so far, it doesn't look like those lower end Furman things do much more.

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centurymantra
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Post by centurymantra » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:52 am

Yeah....those Furman units really aren't much more than glorified power strips that happen to fit neatly in a rack. One thing to keep in mind is that one of those balanced power pieces have 8-12 outlets and you could just power it off one outlet. Use the APC with your computer rig on another outlet. These are expensive, but I've seen Equitechs go for $600 or so used...still not cheap. I'd definitely look around on the used market. There's a company called Audio Power Industries that caters more to the high end audio market than pro audio, but their stuff is pretty decent. You can find their older Power Wedge series, with 8-10 outlets, used for modest sums. I used to use a Power Wedge 116 in my home audio rig and really liked what it did for the overall sound. You could find one of these on Ebay or Audiogon for around $175-250 and the lesser version, the 114, for even less. These are isolation transformer based and pretty well built. I've been very seriously considering getting one of these and using it for my recording gear. All that aside, you could make potentially beefier and better isolation transformers DIY with the right info in hand, a modest amount of cash for parts, and some time and energy. I think that running the computer on the APC, the recording gear on something like that that Power Wedge and just plugging amps, when you use them, right in the wall would work pretty good. If you're just getting power strips, rather than a conditioner like you mentioned, there are some beefier strips out there with better outlets and wiring, some with chassies designed to reject RF. These aren't usually too expensive and are decent investments. If you're feeling really industrious, go to Jon Risch's DIY page. He's pretty well regarded and has recipes for DIY surge/filtration units, cables, balanced power pieces, etc. I've run across pretty good comments in both the pro and home audio communities regarding his stuff.

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm

honkyjonk
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Post by honkyjonk » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:42 am

Awesome,

Thanks so much man. That helps a bunch.

honkyjonk
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Post by honkyjonk » Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:32 pm

One more question. I'm coming across a bunch of different iso. Xformer/conditioner units. How many amps and watts should I be shooting for? Forgive me, I'm learning.

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centurymantra
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Post by centurymantra » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:43 am

You know, when it comes to the technical side of the what/where of isolation transformers, I am not the most informed. Although I suggested the idea of DIY, I haven't really tackled the project although I had done quite a bit of research at one point and almost stepped into that DIY arena. I've lost touch with the best internet research sources and forums for this stuff. Is there a forum at Risch's site? If a good source of info comes to mind, I'll drop you a post. This is a pretty good site for folks that are constructing stuidos; http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/index.php

Saw the pics of your space BTW. Pretty cool. With some acoustic work it could be a pretty cool space...does have some vibe. I know I mentioned this already, but don't forget about the idea of putting in a dedicated line or two.

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Post by rjd2 » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm

hi, im very sorry to co-op off another post, but for some reason, the site sends me to the forum index when i click on "new topic". this topic is the closest i can get.

my question is power related. does anyone know what voltage an rca ba-21a preamp runs at? i have a schematic for the unit, but it does not say what voltage it runs at. thanks for your help.

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shedshrine
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Post by shedshrine » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:01 pm

Used supplies around 600!?.

Would one of those flashy Monster Cable boxes you see at Best Buy and the like have the right stuff?
(the ones with the LED readouts and boxed like stereo rack equipment)
Theyv'e got quite a spread of models,
would be interesting to hear what folks felt
was the best bang for buck there.

Thanks,

M

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