Any luthiers in duh house?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:27 am

I just picked up a brand new (damaged) upright bass for $50
It has 2 cracks on the lower side and the back is popped off from about the middle down.
All the wood is there and there's not a scratch on the front or back.

What's the best kind of glue to use?

Should I add something to reinforce the side,or just glue it up from the inside and glue down the back.

Any tips would be much appreciated
Thanks,
Harry

mingus2112 · Post by **mingus2112** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:00 am

If you're asking this question, I'm assuming you're a novice at this (i'm not claiming to be an expert!). I would stick with Aliphatic Resin Glue. It's easy to use, clean up, etc but is VERY strong. It will not damage the instrument and a lot of major manufacturers use this kind of glue. The other (and most popular) kind of glue for acoustic instruments is Hide Glue. It's TERRIBLY hard to work with (you need to mix it with water. . .heat it up. . .all kids of stuff) but it's what the top luthiers use. Your bass is probably a plywood bass. It really wouldn't benefit from using Hide glue.

-James

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:21 am

Thanks....Definetly a novice...

any thoughts on reinforceing the side? I think it will be pretty strong with a bead of glue on the inside and the back glued down. But maybe I should glue some thin wood to the inside of the damaged area?

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:43 am

Titebond II, it is very strong and can be steemed off if you screw up.

I have repaired small cracks in laminate, Broken neck pockets (even on simi h.) and broken headstocks. Seems to be very strong.

Im not a luthier but I have been doing wood work my whole life and I have seen this glue recommened by luthiers.

You can buy it in different colors to match the finish better.

The key to a good glue job is proper clamping and penetration to the right spots.

mingus2112 · Post by **mingus2112** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

RodC wrote:Titebond II

That's what I was thinking for the Aliphatic Resin. Unlike RodC, i haven't been working with wood for years, so I would take his advice. He's got the woodworking know-how and you now know what glue to use. As far as the cracks. . .i would stick with the glue on the inside. Don't go trying to reinforce it with wood. This will turn out to be tone suck city!

norton · Post by **norton** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:53 am

i'm no luthier, but i've got a couple of friends who are. and have watched them make all sorts of "impossible fixes" work.

one thing i know, they hate it when people use screws to fix things. and that if you don't really know what you're doing, you should take it to someone who does.

i bet you could get someone to fix it for $100... and you'd have a perfectly good bass for $150. way better than a f'd up upright that "sort of" sounds ok for $50.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:59 am

mingus2112 wrote:
RodC wrote:Titebond II
Don't go trying to reinforce it with wood. This will turn out to be tone suck city!

Tone suck city.....That's what I was thinking....unless someone had a specific trick or something.

Here's the bass.......came with a bag and a bow too. bag,bow and strings alone are worth over $200.

http://www.wwbw.com/Engelhardt-Supreme- ... 2016.music

mingus2112 · Post by **mingus2112** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:40 am

Dude. . .find a luthier! I thought it was one of those cheap-o $600 chinese basses! Not that this is a top of the liner, but Englehardt makes some of the best plywood basses you can get. I've got a late '50s Kay upright, which is what eventually turned into Englehardt. Do yourself a favor and invest some money. (or sell it to me for $125!!!!)

-James

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:30 am

mingus2112 wrote:Dude. . .find a luthier! I thought it was one of those cheap-o $600 chinese basses! Not that this is a top of the liner, but Englehardt makes some of the best plywood basses you can get. I've got a late '50s Kay upright, which is what eventually turned into Englehardt. Do yourself a favor and invest some money. (or sell it to me for $125!!!!)

-James

Yeah, this is a nice one.. hellofascore!!! I have a friend with some of the big padded clamps. I figure I can make an attempt at gluing it without doing any real harm,( everything fits right together) and if that doesn't work I'll take it somewhere. People who do repairs in my area are hacks anyway. I would have to travel.

I have a nice Strunal I'll be getting rid of if this one works out.

UXB · Post by **UXB** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 9:31 am

There are a variety of glues which can be used. I would recommend taking this to a qualified person to fix it, though, as there may be some other problems worth fixing while it's in this state.

As far as glues go, check out the Stewart Macdonald catalog for some tips. I wish I rould remember some of the trick newer glues used. There are some great glues out now that are very strong and easy to clean up. If you were to do the job "right", the instrument could be steamed and disassembled if future maintenance required it.

Before applying any new glue, one should clean the glue joints and try to make sure that there are minimal stresses on the resonating members-ie. glueing under tension by filling with glue and clamping the hell out of it may be bad for tone in certain circumstances, if one cares.

As for the cracks in the top, these are common and easy to fix, but require some special jigs.

PM me if I can be of any help.

-H

JohnDavisNYC · Post by **JohnDavisNYC** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:30 pm

take it to a luthier... as it is a cheap bass it will undoubtedly need a setup as well, could be a good idea to put some really good strings on it, get the soundpost adjusted, maybe get the fingerboard sanded if there are any shitty buzzes... i've heard David Gage turn some pretty shit basses into good sounding, good playing instruments.

john

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:31 am

toaster3000 wrote:take it to a luthier... as it is a cheap bass it will undoubtedly need a setup as well, could be a good idea to put some really good strings on it, get the soundpost adjusted, maybe get the fingerboard sanded if there are any shitty buzzes... i've heard David Gage turn some pretty shit basses into good sounding, good playing instruments.

john

Uprights are pretty straight forward "BEASTS" the ebony fingerboard has never been touched by human hands.
The only real adjustments you can make are with the bridge, and that's really just a matter of sliding it forward or back a bit.

The strings it ships with are not the best though...But they're good enough since they're brand new.(and pretty expensive)
With a little glue this thing will be almost as good as brand new. the only sign of any damage will be two cracks on the lower side.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:44 am

UXB wrote:There are a variety of glues which can be used. I would recommend taking this to a qualified person to fix it, though, as there may be some other problems worth fixing while it's in this state.

As far as glues go, check out the Stewart Macdonald catalog for some tips. I wish I rould remember some of the trick newer glues used. There are some great glues out now that are very strong and easy to clean up. If you were to do the job "right", the instrument could be steamed and disassembled if future maintenance required it.

Before applying any new glue, one should clean the glue joints and try to make sure that there are minimal stresses on the resonating members-ie. glueing under tension by filling with glue and clamping the hell out of it may be bad for tone in certain circumstances, if one cares.

As for the cracks in the top, these are common and easy to fix, but require some special jigs.

PM me if I can be of any help.

-H[/quot

(((Stewart Macdonald catalog))) .....Awesome resource there ....Thanks!
Tons of great stuff and info....
I think I'm going to go with the easy to use hide glue.
The tightbond looks like it might be stronger,but the hideglue looks like it can be "undone" if I make a mess of it.
There is no damage to the front or back or neck. It's just 2 cracks on the lower side and then it's just a matter of gluing the back,back down.

I'm thinking I shoul do the side 1st and then glue the back,backdown.
Or should I do both at the same time and clamp it from both directions?
Or is it 6 of 1,1/2 dozen of the other?
Thanks for the help.
Harry

RodC · Post by **RodC** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:11 am

Test clamp every thing first. You may end up putting glue on one broken part, clamping it all (Both breaks) to make sure it aligns, wait for that fix to dry then glue the next.

If it all matches up well and you can get all the clamps alighned you may have to do it all at once.

On acustic instruments be careful where you place the clamp, you dont want to stress other parts of the wood. If there is a curve to the wood make sure you dont clamp and bow a portion of the wood. This could harm it as well as flexing the joint you are trying to clamp and it wont alighn very well.

Test clamp everything, you may have to remove small missalighned splinters in the middle of the crack to get a perfect fit. If you cant clamp it together without the glue, you aint going to be able to do it with the glue.

Pics would help. On real bad acustic instruments you sometimes have to make a jig or screw some blocks to your workbench to create an outline of what shape you want.

Tite Bond II is reversable, you just have to steam it off. I belive Tite Bond III is not.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:24 am

RodC wrote:Test clamp every thing first. You may end up putting glue on one broken part, clamping it all (Both breaks) to make sure it aligns, wait for that fix to dry then glue the next.

If it all matches up well and you can get all the clamps alighned you may have to do it all at once.

On acustic instruments be careful where you place the clamp, you dont want to stress other parts of the wood. If there is a curve to the wood make sure you dont clamp and bow a portion of the wood. This could harm it as well as flexing the joint you are trying to clamp and it wont alighn very well.

Test clamp everything, you may have to remove small missalighned splinters in the middle of the crack to get a perfect fit. If you cant clamp it together without the glue, you aint going to be able to do it with the glue.

Pics would help. On real bad acustic instruments you sometimes have to make a jig or screw some blocks to your workbench to create an outline of what shape you want.

Tite Bond II is reversable, you just have to steam it off. I belive Tite Bond III is not.

Good advice....would you recommend tight bond II over this?

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhe ... _Glue.html

I know I really should take it to a pro,but this is something I always wanted to learn about. I'm already learning a lot just talking about it.
Thanks to everyone!
Harry

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