Deciding My Future...

[AudioJunky]

Hi everyone-

I'm looking for some advice on some next steps that I should be making in order to drastically change my work day. Currently I am 28, living in Los Angeles. When my time is free, I spend 95% of it playing saxophone and writing music in my home studio. I've learned a lot building this studio myself, and I've done small projects for friends and myself. They include anything from music for film, songwriters, and more.

On the flipside, I make 95% of my living as a high school music teacher working full time. It eats up a majority of my time and leaves little room for me to do things like taking on bigger projects, finding gigs for my playing, practicing, etc. etc. etc. I have my credential, a master's degree.. and going back to teaching in the distant future would definitely be on the table if it was something that I had to do. I feel that I am still young enough and in a good spot to take this risk.

I've pretty much decided that my full time gig as a teacher needs to go. I plan on possibly finding part time work next year so that I can do more of what I love- playing/producing. A great accomplishment for me would be teaching part time and doing more of those things, but that is not the end result that I only want.

My end result, which I hope would be a reality in 5 years or sooner- is to have a family, live in Los Angeles, and make my living primarily from performing and writing/producing music. I hope to eventually (and I'm being idealistic here for the sakes of setting my hopes high) is to produce & play with major artists. If I could come close to making 35k the first year just playing and producing, I'd be a happy camper.. I currently have no debt to worry about... but I'd eventually like to earn somewhere between 70k-100k per year.

Maybe some of you have been in a similar situation before..or not? At the end of this year I plan to quit my day gig (in June)- I'm not sure if I should go back to school for something in order to use it as an excuse to hustle and do what I want- or if there are options I should be looking into in the next few months before I make this move. Any type of advice that would help me out in making a living as a performer and producer is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time...

[UXB]

That is a big question. I have been slowly making the change from performer/session player to studio hermit for some time. I too dream of starting a family, and hope that day comes soon.

I started writing what I thought you should do, and realized how high handed that would be. I wish you the best in your endeavors, and I hope you make choices which will give you long term success both financially and personally.

I couldn't see myself being a good father/husband if I kept touring.

Best,
H

[dirk_v]

Hey AudioJunky - Sounds to me like you've already got it figured out. Cutting back on work without completely losing some financial safety net is certainly part of my plan, as is having a family and eventually bringing home some sexy money. And if you don't already, make sure end up with a partner who is supportive and willing to see you through to success. It makes all the difference in the world. Then you just need to be persistent, and always, always deliver. Wishing you success.

Best,
-dv

[Jon Nolan]

And if you don't already, make sure end up with a partner who is supportive and willing to see you through to success. It makes all the difference in the world.

I think this is a great point. my wife is the best, and i certainly couldn't be doing what i'm doing without her. we talked about music and expectations from the beginning.

Lordy, my post is a' gonna be loooong. apologies in advance.

some thoughts:

define what "success" is in specific terms. does it only mean that you're earning that $75-100k, or a sexy stack of press clippings and a cupboard full of Ramen? something in between?

as my super business minded dad always says, "put lines on the field." that way you know if you're making progress. (i was that weird 'artsy' son he never quite understood - capt. of the football team and crooning sappy love songs to the girls )

based on my own experience, i'd suggest that being honest with yourself about what kind of music you play and it's potential as a viable business is really important not only for an artist, but their potential mate for sure. it sounds like that's what you're doing. one thing that's good (at least from where i'm standing) is that it sounds like sax is your main instrument. we guitarists are a dime a dozen. that might mean an easier time getting work, i dunno.

anyway, if your expectations are realistic - no matter what it is you want - you can avoid a hell of a lot of the angst that i see a lot of us musicians experience when their unrealistic hopes crash into the reality of art shaking hands with commerce. It's hard, but it can be done though. I'm not trying to take the wind outta anybody's sails...

i'm 33, a stay-at-home father of three, rocker/newbie-recordist by night, and i'm also the music editor for a great local arts&culture magazine. I've got 3 year old twin girls and a 9 month old boy, and my wife of 8 years is a third grade teacher.

but, i spent almost ten years, until 2003, touring with my now defunct alt-country band. (alt-country. see: industry kiss of death!) i've found that for me, it's been way more fulfilling artistically to diversify a bit, and not put all my eggs into one basket - namely providing for myself and my family exclusively thru performing and releasing music.

as my old band went along, we had some successes/and fulfilling experiences for sure. Italy "discovered" us and we toured over there several times and were treated like rock stars, selling 10-15 thousand CDs, though most of that dough went to pay off the debt we had to the guy who funded our recordings, our rent, our plan for getting 'to the next level' and our band vehicle (of course).

It did eventually lead to a humble record deal with Germany's Blue Rose Records, a great agent based in Holland, a manager here in the States and a few more tours around Europe (all the while doing like 125 dates/year in the states). as we slowly learned about the business and the realities of how recording/publishing/managerial contracts are structured, it became clearer to us that our style of music wouldn't provide a living wage and a lifestyle that we wanted, as we all wanted wives/kids/houses too. so, in the end, we decided it wasn't worth staying on the path, given what we could see for ourselves in the future if we were to have continued on.

my best friend and co-frontman is finishing up his PhD at Brown for ethnomusicology, our Harvard grad drummer is happily swinging a hammer with a construction outfit when he's not touring occasionally with his new art/noise troupe Devil Music (they write original scores to silent films and perform them live to the film), and my old bass player is now the ice rink guru for some olympic rink in salt lake city. everybody is married, some with kids, and digging life.

now that scenario was for us and our style of music. i don't know what kind of music you make or your plans to get people to pay for your art/services. god knows there are infinitely more music business opportunities in LA as opposed to New Hampshire -session work etc. a friend of mine who moved out there last year is now palling around with dudes from G'n'R and interning at The Ellen Degeneres show, and at SONY. in NH, uhhh, kevin nealon has a house somewhere close and Tom Bergeron lives a town over when he's not hamming it up for AFV.

have you ever been on the road? if not, you might try it out. i think that lifestyle is something you either dig or you don't. some people thrive and some people fold and realize it's not for them. i loved touring, but i have to say leaving my wife at home hurt a bunch, and this was all before we had kids. i can't imagine that now.

if you're not looking to get on the road full time with another artist (or with your own stuff), another idea might be to go for it without quitting the teaching gig. at least you get summers and week vacations thru the year, right? maybe try to start booking your spring and summer like gangbusters now. if you do get busy it'll be a pain in the ass trying to get some sleep during the spring i'm sure, but it might give you a sense of if you can pull off $35k in your first year. then if things are hopping and the summer looks good, maybe you quit - or if it's not what you hoped, maybe you hang on to the job. there's no middle class in rock and roll. (perfomring anyway).

that said, there is something to be said for dedicating all your emotional and physical strength/focus on one thing.

i'm just brainstorming here, not telling you what the 'right' path is. UXB is right, that wouldn't be right.

here are a few last thoughts before i mercifully bring this tome to an end.

my 'a-ha' moments:

- how many musicians do i personally know? llllllllots. how many do i personally know that make their entire living in music as a performer (sideman/songwriter). less than ten i think? how many have a life that doesn't make me wanna slit my wrists? three. in rock and roll or anything like it? one - duke levine.

- i always used to console myself by saying something like, 'ahhh, i don't want to be rich or anything. i just want something like wilco's career - critic's darlings, loved by fans, revered by musicians, and they can play big-ish places.' (not that i ever thought i could be wilco per se, just that i could have something like their thing). anyway, then i read Greg Kot's "Learning How to Die." I wouldn't have been willing to pay the personal cost that they paid to be where they are. No way.

- Playing Axis & Allies with the neighbor kids and listening to "Hunting High and Low" ( i crack me up).

I hope this wasn't too much of a bummer to read. I, like UXB, wish you long term success both financially and personally! Music is good.

Kind regards,
Jon

[kayagum]

Maybe I'm lame for not taking the total plunge, but let me offer another path:

So, I wanted to do music and theater. I'm also pretty good with databases (which is a skill I picked up temping, covering for my art gigs). I decided I was going to let it ride, and let time decide which path I should take.

A dozen years later, I'm still doing all 3. Although most of my income is from the corporate database gig (which I still enjoy- why do Sudoku or crossword puzzles when you can solve puzzles for real money), I was able to do 2 full theater shows, reworking my music setup for a possible project, and got married in the same year.

The lack of time actually worked to my advantage. I can't afford to obsess about any of my interests. I can't work 80 hours / wk at my corporate job when I have rehearsals. I can't work 80 hours / wk at my theater gig because I won't be able to make rent. I literally play one off of the other, and I'm probably ahead on all counts because I do my work and then leave. When I obsess, my work sprawls and it's an incoherent mess.

When you're doing artistic work, you're not churning out wingnuts. Your "career" can be made or broken with 1 project. Be picky and do the really, really worthwhile projects and skip the also-rans. When you have a steady day job, you can afford to say no to the loser projects, and do what you really love. One of the theater gigs that came to fruition this year was a 2+ year project, and my first mainstage project in almost 8 years. But it got me the best reviews, exposure and publicity in my career. Certainly better than being abused by the last round of theater companies. But I could say no to them because they paid me next to nothing, and I had a better paying option.

I also need a fair amount of structure to get anything done, as much as I hate to admit it. You may not need the same... but consider some of the options you have besides the current American obsession of Texas Hold'Em Psychology of "going all in". Remember that "going all in" is a desperate move that almost never works.

As always, YMMV.

[LewKellogg]

You might also want to read "Courtney Love Does the Math" by, of course, Courtney Love. Adds perspective.

[kayagum]

You might also want to read "Courtney Love Does the Math" by, of course, Courtney Love. Adds perspective.

...who stole it from Steve Albini.

Courtney Love's article on Salon.com: http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/

Albini's article (many versions floating out there): http://www.indiecentre.com/info/article ... ticleID=25

[radiationroom]

Hi everyone-

Hello....

On the flipside, I make 95% of my living as a high school music teacher working full time.

My end result, which I hope would be a reality in 5 years or sooner- is to have a family, live in Los Angeles, and make my living primarily from performing and writing/producing music.

You are not going to want to hear this, but working "fool time" in the music business and having a family seem to be mutually exclusive propositions for many of us. In my case, I turn the big four-oh-my-god the end of this year, am still single, and co-hab a house with two aging parents because it saves a whole bunch of cash for both them and me. The fact that I am rarely home on the weekends and get up after noon most days has been a factor in every breakup I've ever been through as an adult.

Your teaching gig is STABLE INCOME which is a requirement if you expect to raise a family in a comfortable enviroment. Money problems lead to "d'vorse", and if you are a freelancer like I am, you never know where your next paycheck is coming from. Residuals are a nice easy way to make money, but they only last for so long and end all together when your project's sales fall below a certain point. So you will be spending a large chunk of your free time looking for that next gig.

I hope to eventually (and I'm being idealistic here for the sakes of setting my hopes high) is to produce & play with major artists. If I could come close to making 35k the first year just playing and producing, I'd be a happy camper.. I currently have no debt to worry about... but I'd eventually like to earn somewhere between 70k-100k per year.

The music business is imploding all around us. Edel Music Group, who is the largest multi-national independent now that Zomba was absorbed by the Sony/BMG empire, cut their staff worldwide from 1,600 to around 600 along with their artist roster. Sony/BMG upon their merger cut a reported 20% of their roster along with a substantial chunk of their staff. This translates directly into less job opportunity for everyone attempting to work in the biz. And that includes producers because their are fewer gigs coming out of both the majors and the indies.

For an interesting perspective from a music-business educator's viewpoint, read Dick Weissman's article "Knowledge For What? A Change Is Gonna Come, and Maybe We Should Be Part of the Solution" - online at http://www.meiea.org/Journal/html_ver/V ... Point.html

Here is an important point from Mr. Weissman's article.

Let?s turn to the current music industry scene. Earlier this year EMI announced it was laying off 1,500 people, and cutting its artist roster by twenty percent. {SNIP} When WEA was spun off from Time Warner it announced 1,000 layoffs, including the president of Atlantic and the president of Elektra. Sylvia Rhone, the ex-president of Elektra, was possibly the only black woman holding a CEO position with a major record label. More recently, Warner is said to be cutting its artist roster in half, which will likely mean more corporate job cuts.

Also...

I know for example that CD Baby, which is certainly a laudable enterprise, has stated on its own sites that most of its thousands of records sell less than ten copies.

Of course there will be acts who record their vanity CD, but how many of them actually make it to the level where they can afford to hire a serious producer/engineer/studio and create an opportunity for another person to earn the money required to support a house and family? You need to think about this long and hard before quitting your full time teaching gig, especially if you get full benifits along with saliry. There are days where I'd be most glad to swap what I'm doing for your gig.

Just my $0.02 - Peter Carli

[cgarges]

I'd be curious to know how many full-timers reading this make 70-100k a year. I've been doing this full-time for over 10 years now and have yet to net 35k, after deductable equipment purchases. I can't BEGIN to imagine making 100k a year at this without some type of major hookup.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[inflatable]

Wow, it looks like you've got it all planned out. $100k a year sounds nice. Sign me up.

Keep dreaming.

Even the best artists in this town (LA) make shit for a living. You should expect to constantly get screwed over by the suits. Even a cat like Jon Brion, who is a bonafide musical genius probably isn't making $100k/year. And he works on movie soundtracks as well as producing some of the biggest acts in music. (Fiona Apple, Aimee Mann, Kanye West, Elliot Smith, Rufus Wainwright III, etc.)

Things don't happen in this business because you want them to. They happen cuz you went to High School with an exec at Warners. Set your sights a little lower and you won't be so disappointed.

Why did you opt for the Masters/teaching gig in the first place if being an artist is your goal?

You could go back to school, but that will put you in debt and not much closer to you goal. Education doesn't mean squat. Your reel is all that matters. et a good reel and you can pick your projects. But it is a catch22. How do you get a good reel without working with great artists?

I could go on, but I'm starting to make myself depressed.

[radiationroom]

How do you get a good reel without working with great artists?

***to paraphrase Snoop Dogg*** That's the sixty-four dollar sack pyramid question. The person who answers the question correctly wins the sack pyramid along with a production contract with Warner Music Group and a $20.00 gift certificate to the Compton swap meet.

Honestly, finding great talent these daze is like panning for gold in a garbage dump. You may eventually find something worthwile, but until then you will handle lots of festering, rotten crap that stinks. A major issue is that a large majority of kids today play videogames and eat junkfood instead of learning to play an instrument, build model trains, play football, learn to draw, or any of the other activites that youth enguaged in prior to the onset of "the digital lifestyle". That leaves precious little talent coming up through the pipeline, talent that should be already well developed by high-school graduation instead of being **started** in college. And this is not just in music, but across the board in many professions, both inside and outside of the arts.

[kweis7]

I'm also pretty good with databases (which is a skill I picked up temping, covering for my art gigs).

Interesting, I'm doing a web/db thing for a university. It is pretty sweet. I listen to tons of music every day, write a bit of code, and if nothing breaks everyone leaves me alone. Fairly amazing really, compared to other full time gigis I've had. Plus, staff gets library privleges and we are right near the music library.

Anyways, as far as 'planning your future', it seems like teaching school leaves a good bit of free time. My buddy who plays bass and teaches spanish in a high school gets planning days, holidays, 2.5 weeks at christmas and 2 whole months off in the summer, plus benefits and OK $.

As for me, I make a decent amount of extra cash playing gigs but it is unrealistic to think that I would be able to have as relaxed a life style as I have now if I had to run all around FL to make every gig I could. I've done it and was burnt out by it. 2-3 gigs a week = groceries, gas and play money and it is still fun. 4+ gigs a week, especially if you take whatever is offered since you can't afford to be off, begins to be less and less fun, for me at least.

Man, I remember when I was playing guitar full time right out of music school and paying my bills. I had a couple steady gigs at resorts on the coast plus occasionals and it was enough to be frugal and comfortable. My parents COULD NOT BELIEVE I did not need help financially. Then, at 25, I got the chicken pox, which is a fairly serious thing at that age; I was really sick and looked like hell. Guess what: I lost my gigs. I could not make them for a week or so but after that nobody wanted me at their restuarant or poolside or whatever. I looked like a fricken monster for ~2 months. My folks helped out a bit then and I got my self back together but now, nearly 15 years later, I can't see giving up the job with benefits. Not for me at least.

I went back to get a masters in music a while ago thinking I might want to teach college. Nope, I don't want to teach college. A funny thing though, I could ALWAYS park in front of the homeless shelter near campus and did. Nobody wanted to park there. I considered it part of my music education. Sounds a bit melodramatic but this is not Canada or Sweden. Get sick, go broke, get evicted.

Also, if you're not getting calls now for work, I would not think quiting your day gig would change that much, at least for quite a while.

[bobg (homestudioguy)]

Question!
Are you a card carrying member of the local musicians hall ie AF of M?
If not, it may be something to consider.
I lived in a small city and was the #2 call union hall t-bone player in town as well as 2nd chair trombonist for their metropolitan status symphony orchestra.
The largest majority of the "players" in town were music teachers, band directors, college music professors, and so on.
When the circuses came to town, we got called, when the ice shows came in to town we got called, when the Al Martinos and Carol Lawrences and show folks like that came into town, we got called.
With the union hall and orchestra connections there then came paid church work, big band work, dance show work, recording work, and the like.
It all revolved around the concept of building relationships.
I eventually hooked up with some guys who were MS graduates of Carnegie-Mellon Univ., Duquesne. Univ., WVU, etc and we put together a brass quintet that soon became the #1 call brass ensemble in town and we started getting nice paying college gigs on top of the work we were already getting (we practiced our asses off to get to that point!!!).
Again, all through relationship building.
Just a thought!
Keep the day job and let it help you build your performance network.

[flapmaggot]

Hi,

I'd like to offer advice based on being in the same boat you were in when I was your age. Of more importance, I am a native Los Angeles resident and can offer a bit of insight into making money in L.A. Currently, I am an administrator at a huge University, have two little fun weird kids, have a great little tape opish studio and make strange records that do rather well for what they are!! Below are thoughts:

PEOPLE SKILLS - If you want to make a living just playing sax, stand in line. Assess your true skills and determine your marketability. YOU NEED TO HAVE PEOPLE CHOPS. If you show up to an audition and you smell like chili beans and you're late...you don't have a clue. People get hired for gigs NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE OF CHOPS, but because they are cool people and are IN CONTEXT to the environment.

REALITY - I studied drums at M.I. when it was a small conservitory in the early 80's. I won the top dog award, got a starter endorsement with yamaha drums and started playing everywhere I could. Bake sales, bars, recordings, concerts etc...However, everytime I got an industry type call for an audition, there was a line of who's who, including my M.I. teachers waiting to audition. The real gigs, jingles, disney commercials, big band performances on T.V., real recording sessions with Linda rondstdt etc.. are hired out by contractors who hire the big boys, like Ralph Humphry, Jeff (RIP) & Joe Pocaro and those are/were the guys who average the 100 grand a year. Those guys can read a chart with thier eyes closed, play like God and are "in" with the contractor. They are a sure thing and are part of a successfull $$$business strategy$$$$ Moral here is that, L.A. is a hard nut to crack if you want to make the big dough. It is a business so assess your true skills in relation to the need.

FLEXIBILITY - So you're a sax player? - GREAT. Can you SING, play percussion, dance, record? If not, you're just another sax player.

HEALTH BENIFITS/RETIREMENT - I know I sound like an old bitter MFer, but when we are young, sometimes you feel impervious to the will of fate. When we moved into our second home, I stepped on a fucking rusty nail that got lodged between the joints in my big TOE. The bill for the surgery was 15,000 bones. Thank God I am a fully insured as an educator. So if your goal is to have kids, be realistic about their medical needs, future and college. Do some research and you'll find how expensive L.A. is to live in and how much medical insurance is.

DON'T BE COOL - All of us old rock L.A. star scensters grew up and aged. IT will Happen...NO REally. It is sad that some of my friends who had records put out on major labels are either living with their parents, cleaning houses, no insurance and still trying to be cool/trendy/silverlakey. It's just not worth it. Play music for the right reason - for the art of it and not necessarily for the"scen'es" approval. Hard to explain, just don't get cought up in L.A. scenes because they come and go QUICK.

I think you have an advantage in that you are educated and can make choices. Heck you can even substitute teach and gig all over, and you will make okay dough (not $70,000).

I don't mean to sound bitter - this is just unconditional love for a fellow tape opper. I just finished building my 2nd home studio and feel that life is starting fresh. So I hope some of the above info helps you!!

chuck

http://droolbrothers.com

[YOUR KONG]

You know, it's interesting that those who have been pro are saying "I did it, it was fun but not all it's cracked up to be, now I'm more comfortable in a full-time day job," and those who have never been pro are saying "YOU'LL NEVER DO IT."

That said - maybe you're putting the cart before the horse? What do you want to do? Make weird records? Be known on the scene, etc? Maybe you should be thinking about that before you map out the $100k.

I dunno, I'm wrestling with this too.