compression confusion

[dungeonsound615]

Alright well after reading the article in tape op about Sub group compresion and how he never really heard compresion for th efirst three years i kinda got to thinking have I. Alright lately i have been doing a little sub group compression myself just to experiment and i can hear a difference from when i have compression and when i don't but i guess my thing is when do i really want to be using it. I understnad what a compressor does but when is the correct time to use it besides if you just like the sound it gives you. I mean i read these magazines and there always like i just compressed it three Db or something and im like how to they know to compress that much. what do they know tha ti dont know i mean how to they know how to set up there compressor and how much it is compressing and wha tis th eright amount to compress. I guess ive come to the realization that i myself dont really know compression that well just like the Michael Brauer didnt at first so help me out please. what are some good things to practice to learn compression.
thanks all Mike

[DUC]

The only thing I know about compression is that it narrows the dynamics so as to level off the highs and lows. I don't know enough about compression to use it. Why would I want to limit any dynamics, esp. if I'm already getting some tape compression?
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Guys, think of it this way, when you want something to sound closer to you, use it. When you want to solidify and take those errant, light, irregular drum hits, use it. When the singer goes off-mike for a split second while delivering their blistering first take vocal, use it. Unless something is played with the performance of doom, I'll usually always compress it. Most times, things get compressed twice- once while tracking, then again while mixing and actually then again via the stereo buss. When mixing with an SSL quad compressor across the buss, finding the right attack and release time along with the right threshold can be a real timesaver. Things sound more like R-O-C-K with it.

I've heard it stated this way- "Compression is creative while limiting is mechanical".

[dungeonsound615]

Jeff that helps me out some but i guess i dont get how some engineers know how much to compress it seems kinda hard to figure out. When i hear in tape op that a pro could not hear it for the first three years kinda makes me think oh great what that mean for me,
Mike

[jajjguy]

When people say they compress just a little bit, like 3dB or whatever, they mean they aren't compressing enough to really change the tone or the envelope, just enough to either smooth it a little or bring it forward a little or make it a little louder. In other words, it won't sound "compressed" it'll just sound a little more in a certain direction. So if you basically like the way something sounds, don't compress it or compress it a little bit. If you really want to shake things up, that's when you compress more.

Why would you want to limit your dynamics? Good question, since a sense of dynamic movement is something we strive for in music. You've got to be careful with it, but it can really help you mix by helping you place a particular instrument at a particular depth or distance. If a track is very dynamic, it won't stay where you want it. So it's all about control. And yes of course you trade away some realness or spontaneity or whatever to get that extra control, so it's a tradeoff that takes some judgment.

As a rule, i'd say naturalistic recordings need less compression, while aggressively produced stuff needs more.

[swingdoc]

The best advise about compression, (and really all of recording and mixing), is that you have to do a lot of it in order to sense the subtleties.
Its like most everything in life, if you do it a ton, thats when you can fine tune your skills.
Mix to what you hear. If it sounds better, then it is. Dont worry too much about settings, or what its supposed to be. Apply compression on and off, less & more, until you can hear it for sure. Then with time you'll hear it as a more surgical tool. Dont get frustrarted by starting off at listening for microns; start big and obvious, then move smaller.
You gotta believe the big boys have put in their hours before they can hear the stuff we cant.

[swingdoc]

[bigtoe]

great thread...

"You gotta believe the big boys have put in their hours before they can hear the stuff we cant."

on that note- find a big boy - or bigger boy than you - whose sounds you do dig and talk to em about what they do...intern/assist/sit in on mixes...a lot of this stuff isn't really self-evident and when it's shown to you - you go... "AHHHHHHHHH...jesus... OK...i get it." it sticks with ya better. really it helps you narrow it down from the generic - "use what you like."

that golden ears course looks quite cool too...i'm getting that soon.

getting a decent compressor is kind of really helpful too. for 5 years all i used was a behringer composer and the like unless i was in a really good studio and then i'd try to soak up as much as i could in a very small amount of time...uphill battle. then i got this TL audio thing for a year. ick. the lower end things are just not very responsive- eg: "gee i turn this knob and it sounds worse!" wow what a lesson... i think the rnc is clean enough to where you can really hear attack.release.ratio...etc...

"When i hear in tape op that a pro could not hear it for the first three years kinda makes me think oh great what that mean for me"

it means if you stick with it you'll get it eventually...at least that's where i'm putting my money.

sorry for all the blab...work is boring and i'm avoiding homework. see ya.
MIke

[joel hamilton]

I use compression to give the illusion of "huge" when "huge" is not available.

I use compression like an envelope generator: ASDR style, to sculpt transients and shape individual waves coming at me.

I couldnt "hear" it when I started.

Yes you can hear/feel 3db of compression, depending on the compressor.

Sometimes you compress till you hear the unit, then back off either the ratio or the threshold till it gets more transparent.

Sometimes you just have to know which box to choose for the right results.

A DBX 16Oxt sounds like a compressor on a drum room mic to tape. A drawmer 1960 set to "slow" attack and slow release does NOT.

A WORD TO THE WISE:

Record A LOT. every day. (without fear or preconceived notions).
Dont read about compressors. Use one. Learn the one YOU have.
If you dont have one DONT worry about it.
I started learning this shit with a dyna comp pedal, and some shitty yamaha compressor (i dont even remember what model).

Just record someone. experiment. have fun for christs sake.(!?!?)
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[joel hamilton]

I use compression to give the illusion of "huge" when "huge" is not available.

I use compression like an envelope generator: ASDR style, to sculpt transients and shape individual waves coming at me.

I couldnt "hear" it when I started.

Yes you can hear/feel 3db of compression, depending on the compressor.

Sometimes you compress till you hear the unit, then back off either the ratio or the threshold till it gets more transparent.

Sometimes you just have to know which box to choose for the right results.

A DBX 16Oxt sounds like a compressor on a drum room mic to tape. A drawmer 1960 set to "slow" attack and slow release does NOT.

A WORD TO THE WISE:

Record A LOT. every day. (without fear or preconceived notions).
Dont read about compressors. Use one. Learn the one YOU have.
If you dont have one DONT worry about it.
I started learning this shit with a dyna comp pedal, and some shitty yamaha compressor (i dont even remember what model).

Just record someone. experiment. have fun for christs sake.(!?!?)
_________________
http://joelhamiltonrecording.com/

http://www.studiogbrooklyn.com

http://www.myspace.com/thebookofknots

[xonlocust]

the thing that made the most sense to me was looking at it from an ADSR point of view. mike, i wish i could pull up a graph to show you what i'm talking about.... then it's easiest to hear on things with fast transients.

there was an awesome presentation at the tapeop conference about this, and when you could see what the waveforms of a snare hit looked like under various settings, it really made a lot of sense.

it's wierd, it makes things sound louder but quieter some times. that'll make more sense as you play with it more and use your ears.

here's something that might help:

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/Compression.htm

[soundguy]

There are no easy answers to this. All compressors are different, they sound different, they react differently and they'll put your stuff in a different place in the mix when you use them. -3dB on one box is not the same as -3dB on another box.

think in terms of this question:

You are driving a car at 70 MPH going uphill in the left lane. You want to switch to one lane over on your right. How much do you depress the gas pedal to accelerate into the next lane?

There is no answer to this anymore as there is any answer to most compressor questions, or really, audio related questions in general. You know from doing and often, you do it naturally. But, if you need to get gear head about it, youd need to know the angle of the incline, the size of the engine, the gear you are in, the rpm's you are at, etc. and once you get all that gear head shit, it still aint really that easy to apply if you dont understand the concept. Try driving up a hill in LA to realize that not everyone undertands the concept of accelerating to maintain constant speed, the 405 over the hill to the 101 is maddening 24 hours a day based on this very concept.

Joel's advice is the best. Record. Turn knobs. Listen. Eventually the sun will rise and you'll have your answer, but without the due dilligence of experimenting it is really confusing. I used compressors for years before I really understood what they did and it wasnt until I got my hands on a REALLY good compressor that I was able to apply compression creatively. Im accused of being a snob a bunch round these parts, but I really think that there is nothign worse than a cheap compressor. You are so much better off with no compressor versus cheap compressor in more than half of the situations where you might want a compressor. But you know, take the elitist's perspective with a grain of salt. Use a compressor because when you plug it in, your shit is better. If when you plug it in and it aint better, or if when you plug it in you cant tell, plug it out.

dave

[dungeonsound615]

if you plug it in and cant hear it take it out

[jajjguy]

The times i've used compression most extremely were when the sounds i wanted to make weren't available to me. For example, I wanted a snare-ish sound, but didn't have a snare, and wanted it to sound different anyway. I used various things, from stomping on a loose floorboard to slamming a cabinet door, and compressed them hard with my RNC. The idea here, the thing that makes a smack sound into a meaty crash sound, is to reduce the initial attack and bring up the part of the sound that happens right after that. So, I'd dial up the ratio, dial down the threshold, and start playing with the attack and release, till i got the right balance of smack to crash, and then back off the threshold and/or ratio until it sounded biggest. Sometimes I'd need to duplicate the track and put a put a little reverb before the compressor, just to have some decay to bring up. And there's that 80s drum machine thing i was looking for, but with some flair. So that's one hands-on example for ya.

[vvv]

And then there's compressors like the opto on my Joe Meek VC3Q that lend a certain sound to a vocal, or bass, or guitar, while smoothing.
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[axial]

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