Analog/Hardware Brickwall Limiter for Digital Mastering

[Snarl 12/8]

Hey Folks,

As alluded to here: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90547

I received the Denon SD/USB recorder from my family for christmas. I'm really digging it for mixdowns and spontaneous recordings. You hit that record button and it records a wav file. I've mixed down everything I had recorded on my Alesis HD24XR through my Allen & Heath mixer to the Denon. I messed around a lot with overall level in the mixing. Trying to see if I could get away with some digital overs in the hopes of getting something fairly loud straight out of the Denon without having to mess with the files on the computer. Turns out this isn't the case. I can get beautifully clean recordings if I record conservatively. The Denon is capturing at 24bit/48kHz. But they always have at least 10 (sometimes way more) almost random looking spikes in the wave form. It also turns out I don't really like looking at the sounds and trying to manipulate them on a computer. I want to "master" straight into the Denon. Ideally getting a result that can at least make a showing in the loudness wars.

So, what's a good, clean, main-buss limiter for my setup. Perhaps something that sounds better and better the more you lean into it? I'm thinking my budget is definitely under $500. I'm looking for a set and forget, one trick pony here. Then it's up to me how much I push into it with my mix.

For the record, I know I should be controlling these spikes at the track/mix level, it's just not really possible given that it's just me, recording myself and I'm trying to capture shit on the fly all the time. I'm trying to focus on the music, not the engineering.

TIA for any suggestions. Sorry for the ramble.

[drumsound]

For under $500 that's a tall order. You could try an RNC. They can be ULTRA FAST so hopefully, that would be helpful to do the get in and get out on spikes. If you want to get fancy (and can figure out more money) the Pendulm brick wall model would be the way to go, if you can find one.

[KuruPrionz]

The RNC is a good choice in your budget range.
It has one set of knobs (digital controllers) for both channels. In fact, Channel B can't be used by itself, you have to use Channel A to use Channel B.

It is clean, you'd really have to push it hard and even then it doesn't really have a "sound", at least I never got mine to do that.
Should take care of your spikes though but NOT after the fact.

You do need to set your levels low enough that you don't get digital "overs", they just don't sound good at all.

FMR also makes the RNLA "Really Nice Limiting Amplifier", which is a bit more spendy but you can find one for under $500, especially used. I've never used one so I can't say much about it. FMR says it's more of a "character piece" so that may be encouraging. Worth poking around anyway.

When I sold my FMR RNC in search of a compressor that also allowed dual-mono and did have some character but was still in the under $500 price range I ended up with an ART Pro VCA II which has a compressor sound that I like, is easy to adjust, can be run dual mono or linked for stereo.
Linked you would just use the knobs for Channel A with the Channel A Output remaining the output and the Channel B output now becoming a Pan Pot.
I've never used mine that way.

I'm running a Focusrite ISA Two into the individual channels and using one side for electric bass which sounds really good to me and the other side for a vocal mic. I keep the Threshold down, mostly I just want to push the peaks down bit but I don't want to crush the dynamic range completely. It will do that too if you want. It's not as fast as the RNC but I think it's fast enough since I usually find it sounds better if you slow the Attack down enough to hear the initial transient attack.

That's all I know, will be fun to watch this thread and hopefully learn something new!!!

[The Scum]

Not analog, but a used TC "Triple C" would do the duty - the poor-man's answer to Waves L2 hardware. Or maybe a DBX driverack?

Fully analog, an old FM broadcast limiter might do the trick - an Orban, or Volumax or similar.

Or the Rolls SL33? Brain-dead simple, and Under $100.

[digitaldrummer]

I was thinking the ART VCA as well, although more buss compressor than limiter I think? A friend of mine used to use one of these TC "Finalizer" for his out of the box masters... https://reverb.com/item/49172321-tc-ele ... -processor
I have no experience with it myself.

[winky dinglehoffer]

Not analog but with analog I/O: the dbx DDP. It's not amazing but it's reasonably effective.

[MoreSpaceEcho]

So, what's a good, clean, main-buss limiter for my setup. Perhaps something that sounds better and better the more you lean into it? I'm thinking my budget is definitely under $500. I'm looking for a set and forget, one trick pony here. Then it's up to me how much I push into it with my mix.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but I don't think there's any analog limiters for $5000 I'd even consider over digital ones, never mind for $500. Digital limiters just work way, way better for this.

I don't think there's ANY limiters that sound better the more you lean into them, but if there are, they very definitely aren't analog ones for under $500. Seriously, you'd need to add a zero. And even then digital ones will work better. There's a reason literally every mastering engineer on the planet has a digital limiter last in the chain. Some folks DO have an analog limiter earlier in the chain as well, but I guarantee you the analog ones are just tapping a db here and there, not doing the heavy lifting

I don't think an RNC is going to do what you want, at all, but I have one that's been sitting here unused forever, I'll sell it to you if you really, really want it.

Instead of spending $500 on analog junk, spend slightly more than 10% of that, buy this, spend a half hour getting to know it, your problem is solved, and you have plenty of money left over to buy something fun.

[Recycled_Brains]

I think the plugin route is the way to go. Massey L2007 is really good and kind of idiot proof. They also have a newer soft-clipping plugin that used very sparingly works great in conjunction with the L2007. I'm not a mastering guy. I pretty much only use these things when I'm printing mixes for bands that aren't getting mastered or printing reference mixes so that the band isn't like "why is this so quiet compared to _________ ?", so I would defer to Morespaceecho's recommendation.

What's cool in any case, is you can get a really good limiter for <$100.

[KuruPrionz]

I was thinking the ART VCA as well, although more buss compressor than limiter I think? A friend of mine used to use one of these TC "Finalizer" for his out of the box masters... https://reverb.com/item/49172321-tc-ele ... -processor
I have no experience with it myself.

The Pro VLA II offers up to 20:1 ratio and fully adjustable threshold, attack and release times so yes, it can be used as a limiter.
It's quiet if the threshold isn't cranked and for limiting it doesn't need to be up very high.
It does have a "sound", I happen to like that. Cheers, Kuru

[The Scum]

If they are just tiny little bursts of transients that cause a few sample to hit full scale, a passive diode clipper could prevent it. And taking out pinpoint spikes then allows for the overall level to be higher in relation.

[Recycled_Brains]

I was thinking the ART VCA as well, although more buss compressor than limiter I think? A friend of mine used to use one of these TC "Finalizer" for his out of the box masters... https://reverb.com/item/49172321-tc-ele ... -processor
I have no experience with it myself.

The Pro VLA II offers up to 20:1 ratio and fully adjustable threshold, attack and release times so yes, it can be used as a limiter.
It's quiet if the threshold isn't cranked and for limiting it doesn't need to be up very high.
It does have a "sound", I happen to like that. Cheers, Kuru

20:1 & fast attack times or not, peaks will likely still get through though. I've tried the hardware comps I own with 20:1, fastest att, etc. It allowed me to get a hotter mix for sure, but I could still only get so close to 0. There are always peaks that sneak past. With digital peak limiters, once your audio hits that wall nothing gets through. I am under the impression that Snarl is looking for a safety net to protect from random overages that produce distortion artifacts when he's printing his mixes. A simple plugin that is dedicated to that function would be a more full proof move.

[Recycled_Brains]

If they are just tiny little bursts of transients that cause a few sample to hit full scale, a passive diode clipper could prevent it. And taking out pinpoint spikes then allows for the overall level to be higher in relation.

I use my Hamptone preamp this way sometimes. It starts to become a limiter at a certain level so I like it across my drum buss.

The Fabfilter Saturn plugin can do this too. Especially the saturation and tape modes.

I still would be skeptical that it would serve the same function as a peak limiter though.

[KuruPrionz]

I was thinking the ART VCA as well, although more buss compressor than limiter I think? A friend of mine used to use one of these TC "Finalizer" for his out of the box masters... https://reverb.com/item/49172321-tc-ele ... -processor
I have no experience with it myself.

The Pro VLA II offers up to 20:1 ratio and fully adjustable threshold, attack and release times so yes, it can be used as a limiter.
It's quiet if the threshold isn't cranked and for limiting it doesn't need to be up very high.
It does have a "sound", I happen to like that. Cheers, Kuru

20:1 & fast attack times or not, peaks will likely still get through though. I've tried the hardware comps I own with 20:1, fastest att, etc. It allowed me to get a hotter mix for sure, but I could still only get so close to 0. There are always peaks that sneak past. With digital peak limiters, once your audio hits that wall nothing gets through. I am under the impression that Snarl is looking for a safety net to protect from random overages that produce distortion artifacts when he's printing his mixes. A simple plugin that is dedicated to that function would be a more full proof move.

I don't disagree with you but the OP states that he wants to avoid using a computer/DAW.
A plugin will drag him back into that world. I haven't used my VLA II for mastering or at a high ratio. I have used it to even up the dynamics a bit when tracking - a 3:1 ratio and I back off the attack somewhat because the shortest possible attack does not sound natural to me. It's working for my purpose, I get a solid signal and no "overs". I use the VLA II on vocals and bass guitar when I'm tracking.

So I am also doing what the OP has suggested that they would prefer to avoid - addressing the issue while tracking.
With 24 bits, we have a bit more dynamic range to play around in. LUFS standards have pretty much solved the "loudness wars", at least on the most common consumer media channels.

Another approach could be to figure out what is causing the peaks. For drums, that could be difficult to solve in a live room. For vocals, changing the position of one's pie hole can make a big difference. For acoustic guitar changing to a thinner pick can make the difference.

We would need more information from the OP to know if any of those might be solutions.
I've got plugins, - IK Stealth Limiter is nice if you get it on sale. Shadow Hills Mastering Compressor was either $30 or $40 at a recent Plugin Alliance sale, I have that too but haven't really used it much yet. I'm not anti-plugin but the OP did say they wanted to avoid that realm if possible.
So it goes. Cheers, Kuru

[MoreSpaceEcho]

Trying to make a showing in the loudness wars with cheap analog gear is knife-to-a-gunfight stuff.

20:1 isn't going to do it. Digital brickwall limiters are like 1000:1, and they use algos specifically designed to somehow sound good doing this insanity. Even if a cheap analog limiter is actually fast enough to catch the peaks, it's going to be so, so, sooooooo much grungier than any of the current digital limiters.

I get not wanting to deal with a computer, but the tunes are going to have to go on a computer at some point if Snarl's ever gonna share them with anyone, it'd be simple business to set up a default REAPER session with a limiter (the stock one will probably work fine) on track one, drop the new mixes onto the track, adjust levels into the limiter, export masters. And there's probably some script so you could do this with like 2.2 mouse clicks.

[vvv]

Or, suck it up and leave the tracks highly dynamic with a low RMS and no peak distortion.

And a special note to the listener, contra Stones: "Mixed to Play NOT Loudly".