upright piano recording?

[sixteenthletter]

hi all,

i'm about to embark on recording a solo pianist for several sessions in our modest home studio. he is a well-respected young improviser/experimental musician and a great pianist. he plays with a lot of dynamics- very soft at times, very loud at times, sometimes hitting/punching the keys in flurries (a la cecil taylor), also been known to get inside the piano and pluck the strings with his fingers and with hit them with xylophone mallets.

i want to just capture what he's doing and keep it as natural and live-sounding as possible. but of course, i need the recording quality to be strong as well.
i have an idea of how to approach it but i thought it would be interesting to get your opinions/advice on how to get the best results with my decent but limited equipment.
thanks in advance for your input!

piano: old Hoffman upright, tuned well and with great character in the sound. a bit on the bassy/dark side, not very bright or clean in the high notes.

mics: 2 rode nt1's, 2 oktava mc012's, 1 studio projects c1, 2 sm58's, 2 sm57's, 1 akg d112, 1 akg d34, 1 pzm, 2 stapes omnis.

pres: fmr rnp (2 channels), peavey vmp-2 (2 channels), joe meek vc6q british channel, apogee mini MP (on the way) (2 channels), crappy presonus blue tube and art mp.

comp: 2 channels of rnc, joe meek vc6q

everything run thru echo layla interface into 2.4 GHZ P4 audio optimized PC running Vegas Video 4.0.

also have a Tascam 8 track reel to reel analog tape recorder with 8 channels of dbx.

[I'm Painting Again]

2 stapes on the piano
(stereo ) through the pre that sounds best to the computer..

would rule if you had a pair of nice ribbons..

fotoqjgpsdj

[bigtoe]

hey-

how does your room sound?

i'd set up a ton of mics if inputs aren't limited...xy the octavas where it sounds good (i'd start with over his head a couple feet angled down), space pair the stapes where they sound good in the room, stick the 57's and/or the rodes in the piano wrapped in a washcloth/shirt or something like that to isolate them from vibrations, tape the PZM to the sound board, throw in something completely wacky as an effect mic.

make sure they all sound good... or at least one set sounds 'realistic' to fall back on...then see what comes out in the wash.

sounds like a good project to record. watch yer levels....those arty types have no respect for knobs and meters...

Mike

[jdsowa]

I don't know a whole lot about some of the mics you own but I can recount my own experiences. The only luck I've had on upright piano is with a pair of small diaphragm condensers. 2 SM57s or 58s will sound absolutely horrid. Also a Rode NT1000 and a combination of anything else won't sound good either. My cheap AKG and EV omnis don't sound good either. Since you have 8 tracks I would suggest putting up 2 mics over top of the piano. Pan em hard left and right for your stereo image. Then you have six channels left over; put mics underneath the piano, behind it on the soundboard, far away in the room, etc. You may or may not use these, but they're there and they might help fill up the sound. Set em up, check for phase issues then record!

[I'm Painting Again]

Sorry I was drunk when I wrote that..didn't realize its just a piano recording..but use the stapes for the stereo room and fill in with what ever you gotsk..to taste..

[Auxillary]

Id put a pzm into the peavey. 2 stapes into RNP. Stick them about 2 feet up and directly above each edge of the upright. Crush that pzm with a meek if you want.

[Auxillary]

I would put the pzm on the floor or ceiling. directly above or below the keys. I have done this exact same thing with earthworks omni's and similiar preamps. Sounds very good.

[Lazy_Q]

I'm dealing with this too - limited mic selection, upright piano, etceteras. My thought would be to either ORTF the MC-012's a bit above and behind the player's head to get more or less what he hears, XY would also work. The omni's above the sides of the piano sound good, and might combine well with a PZM under the piano bench (assuming a standard style piano bench).

I've also wanted to try an ortf setup 6" above the top of the piano (top lid open) centered a bit around middle c (maybe higher), and a third mic (either an omni, bd mic, or pzm) somewhere down towards the soundboard to pick up some lows that might be missed with the fairly direct sound resulting with the stereo mics. Then put a gentle lowpass filter on the third mic and put a matching highpass on the stereo mics, so the lows are more mono, even if they would normally be off to the side (which isn't even strictly true with an upright anyhow).

Regardless, I'd love to hear what works for you. Keep me posted.

[sixteenthletter]

glad to see some great ideas so far. keep em comin! gave me lots of food for thought.

i forgot to mention i also have 1 oktava ml-52 ribbon mic and an avalon u5.

i am definitely from the less is more recording school so the thought of using four or five mics at once sounds like it could make things worse instead of better. but it's worth trying some of the combinations that have been mentioned here.

its a big room in old victorian house, hardwood floors, high ceilings, great natural reverb.

i'll be looking forward to more ideas! thanks.

[bigtoe]

i am definitely from the less is more recording school so the thought of using four or five mics at once sounds like it could make things worse instead of better.

agreed there...just don't use them all at one time...it just makes finding the 'right' set of mics easier...

Mike

[cgarges]

Put your ears up to the back of the piano and find two spots that best represent the high end and the low end of the instrument. Put your Stapes mics there. They're relatively neutral and quiet omnis, so there's no discernable proximity effect and should represent the sound of the piano well. Of all the pres that you have, I would guess that the RNP would be your best bet, although I don't have much experience with anything you're got except the VC6. Check the polarity settings and use whichever positions are appropriate. If the rooms sounds good, throw something else up in whatever spots you think will work. Personally, I think the Oktavas rock for distance miking. In any case, if the piano sounds decent, then I would imagine that the Stapes/RNP setup should work just fine with a minimal amount of fuss. If the piano doesn't sound good, there's not much that will help you anyway. And if you want to sell the Stapes, email me!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[joel hamilton]

I would just put the stapes near the piano, and hit record. move the mics once or twice to see if you get better or worse results.

I seem to open the top of uprights these days, and put some omni's up over the pianist.

Kind of an OH setup, on a bar, omni's.

That has been working really well for me over the past few years.

Given your mic choice, I would certainly choose the stapes.

[Metastaseist]

It's not going to help you decide which gear to use where, and I don't know what kind of stuff you most regularly work on, but I recommend listenning to Iancu Dumitrescu's "Medium III" for solo contrabass (upright bass) to get a good frame of reference going into a project like what you described.

Any "solo" works by Dumitrescu (ie: "Origo" for solo cello, "Diachronies III" for solo piano) will give you an expanded view of what "solo performance" means, but Medium III in particular is his most mind blowing solo piece. It's performed by "the Buddha of the contrabass" Fernando Grillo, which is pretty much all one needs to say if you know his work.

I have tried a solo piano thing before, and I took the approach some have already suggested: set up as much stuff as you can, just go with it, and play around with it once it's all done. The "straight up clean" sound, the "room" sound, put a gong in between the mic and the piano, put a mic through a guitar amp and mic'd it, put a mic through heavy compression etc... But I have to say, with the exception of the lucky cool "breaks" you get, doing it this way really makes you appreciate the effort put into something like Medium III, where it seems nothing was just "left to chance".

[sixteenthletter]

thanks again for the great tips and advice. the recordings are finished and everyone is very happy with them including me. so i guess that's a good sign. the stapes did end up being the close up pair of choice but i used the oktavas for distant room sound. the blend was great. i ran the stapes through the rnp and the oktavas through the vmp-2. it ended up being about the piano and the sound of the room and me just trying to place mics and reproduce that great, natural sound. nothing fancy recording-wise, his amazing musicianship made us all look good

[cgarges]

Congrats! Sounds like everyone was happy and those types of experiences are the best. Way to go!

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC