diy mixing & mastering woes

[schnozzle]

I need some advice about diy mixing and mastering:

Recently my band began recording our first album. We worked out a budget and decided that the best thing would be to spend our money on buying a used reel-to-reel 8-track, a mixer, some microphones, and spend the remainder on pressing up our finished cd?s and printing artwork. We decided to save money by trying to mix and master the recordings ourselves to digital using our laptop computer.

When we played back the analog 8-track tapes that we?d recorded through our monitors, we were all kind of surprised that it sounded better than we thought it would: nice and full and layered, with lots of nuance and details. Then it came time to mix down to digital, and things kind of fell apart: despite everything that we tried, our master CDR sounds very little like our original tapes when we play it back on various home stereo systems. It sounds like crap! Really dull and mushy and dead. I?m not talking about the whole ?analog is better? difference, I?m talking like a major drop in quality.

My first thought is that the culprit is the crappy analog-to-digital converter we used (the laptop?s stock soundcard line input) to bring the mixes into Sound Forge. But I?ve used this same exact system to make digital copies of my vinyl records, and with them the results end up sounding more or less like the original. So what?s the difference between digitizing vinyl records and our analog mixes from 8-track? Is it because the vinyl records are (probably) already compressed, and our tapes were recorded and mixed without the benefit of compression?

Or is there something else I?ve failed to consider?

I?d appreciate any suggestions that people can give.

Thanks?

[trashy]

You're about to get about a hundred posts about how important professional mastering is. But I wonder if you've listened to your tapes through something besides your monitors. If your mix sounds mushy on other systems, it's probably a bad mix that sounds good through your studio's monitors. Part of learning to mix is getting a mix that sounds good on a wide variety of systems.

[schnozzle]

Good point. I hadn't really tried that because our monitoring system is essentially a not-very-expensive home stereo itself, and I figured that it was a pretty fair representation of what the mixes would sound like through a generic crappy boom box. Our deck and mixer are way too big to move around to other peoples' stereos, though...how would one do this without transferring the mix to a more portable format? Apart from taking the 1/2" master tapes to a REAL studio, I mean?

But, again, I'm using the very same stereo amp and soundcard to digitally record vinyl lps as I used to record the analog output from our mixer. Vinyl to amp to soundcard sounds consistant on this system; mixer to amp to soundcard does not. What's the difference?

[axial]

whats the signal path?

I think your problem lies in the card if you are going say straight from your mixer to the card in the comp, if you go into the cards settings and noost them till its loud enuff that should be fine. If you are getting a loss in overall volume and quality that is.I dunno hope that helps

[schnozzle]

Signal path is:

8 tracks from Tascam 80-8 output into first 8 channels of Tascam M-520 mixer, through the EQ and bussed into 2 (stereo) RCA outputs.

RCA buss outputs from mixer go into nasty little mini "line-in" input on laptop's soundcard.

The issue isn't a loss in volume at all, that's no problem. The issue is a loss of quality. I'm too ignorant of engineering to say exactly what the problems are, but I can generally say that what sounded bright became dull, what sounded detailed became muddy, what sounded tightly bassy became boomy.

And, yeah, I agree that it would be better to have a pro master these tapes. We just got into a dilemma where we were broke and it became more important to get the recordings out rather than to get them perfect.

[jspartz]

Two thoughts...

Frist, bypass the EQ and see if that improves your mixes.

Second, the soundcard on my laptop is not that great. Yours might be the same.

Jason

[axial]

yeah what kind of soundcard is it?

[trashy]

But, again, I'm using the very same stereo amp and soundcard to digitally record vinyl lps as I used to record the analog output from our mixer. Vinyl to amp to soundcard sounds consistant on this system; mixer to amp to soundcard does not. What's the difference?

You are!

Seriously, the difference is most likely a non-professional mix vs. a professional mix. The lps are already mixed to sound great everywhere.

Almost everyone who does DIY mixing/mastering does a number of different mixes of each song down to a "portable format" and then take those mixes around to different systems and try them out. This is one of the best and most fun parts of mixing.

Still, I suspect that something else might be going on- probably with your d/a conversion. Let's put the whole vinyl thing aside, and attack this thing on its own merits. What are the specs on your line input? If it's 8-bits, I wouldn't use it - I think it's better to mix down to a really nice cassette deck(!). I've not used Sound Forge, so I'm not sure how well that program does what you want it to. There's got to be some other DIYer in your area that will give you a hand (maybe they've got a better computer set-up that they can haul over, etc.)

[schnozzle]

Oh, yeah, the soundcard is pretty damn crappy, no question.

I think I'm not phrasing this question quite right, but, not to sound like a broken record, here it comes again: vinyl dubbed through the VERY SAME system, same settings, blah blah blah, sounds pretty much consistent from start to finish. Audio signal from mixer does not sound consistent. I'm not talking about mixing crappily (although god knows I'm completely clueless there), I know what the signal coming out of the mixer sounds like through a cheap stereo amp, through 3 different kinds of headphones, through shitty powered computer speakers. We want what comes out of the finished CDr to sound more or less the same when played back through the same cheapo stereo components. It doesn't. So my question is not "why do my mixes sound like crap," but rather:

If both my turntable's signal and the mixer's signal are going through the very same electronic path, and one emerges relatively unscathed and the other does not, then I assume there's some kind of difference between the two signals. Is this possible, and, if so, what would the difference be?

[schnozzle]

Oh, sorry, Trashy, you posted your reply a bit before I did.

Ah, no, it's more than 8 bit. But I don't have it in front of me. I should know this.

Yes, I agree that it's probably the difference between a professional mix and me. I was just trying to narrow down what the qualities of a 'good mix' were beyond the vague 'it has to sound good on a number of different systems.' I was trying to figure out what exactly it is that makes a mix sound good on a number of different systems, rather than just randomly turning knobs until something clicks.

And no, there aren't any other DIY'ers in my little circle of friends that have anything better than I do. Well, there's this one guy who's expressed interest in helping us out, but has made it clear that he really wants to produce us, and we don't quite line up with his aesthetic (i.e., 9 minute guitar solos).

[jspartz]

If you can import each track into seperate wav. files that reference the same start point and send them to me on a CD. Then I will do a rough mix of a song and send it back with some notes on what I did and what I hear.

It might help you develop your ear and understanding for what is happening. If nothing else it would be another perspective on it for you.

E-mail me directly if you would be interested.

Jason

[schnozzle]

Jason:

Thanks for the offer but I have no way of converting/recording all 8 tracks to seperate .wav files while still keeping them synched. I appreciate it, though.

[schnozzle]

Okay, then. I guess the upshot of all this is that it'd be better to rent some kind of mastering deck and send the damn thing to somebody else to master with better a/d converters and, oh, actual experience.

Blaaahhh.

So what do people generally look for when renting a deck? I guess reel to reel 2-track or dat are the two big choices, yes? Is there something else that works too? How 'bout an 8-track cartridge recorder (as in, the 1970's carts that you play in your camaro)? I got one of those...

[axial]

no I don't think so.
ok, if you want to mix down to digital just get a better interface, something for 2-800. Your problem is prolly the card, and you might want to consider mixing it in the comp aswell, rather than dumping a stereo mix.
a lil better monitors and and a better interface will help overall for future projects. just a thought, the thing is I think there has to be a way to do it, its just finding it.

[trashy]

What are you going to do with this recording? It seems to me that for the price of the rental you could buy something for your computer that works. Also, those guys with experience once had no experience before they did it themselves.

If you've got the patience and creativity to record a great sounding record, then I think you could mix and master this thing yourself. It just takes as much patience and creativity as the recording part did.

I still think that you can find someone in your area with a rig you can borrow. You've already had one offer here on this board - if you'd tell us your location, we might be able to hook you up.

(And, before those go-pro people start jumping down my throat, I am in no way saying that his mastering job is going to sound like a professional did it. But, I do think that DIYers can do well for themselves if they work at it.)