Bari Sax recording technique

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AstroSounds
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Bari Sax recording technique

Post by AstroSounds » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:58 am

So I searched for info on this but I didn't find anything specific to bari sax.

I'm wondering what some of the standard approaches are to recording a bari.
I've done plenty of work with tenor and alto sax but bari seems like a different animal.

Is this just my perception or will the same LDC aimed at the left pinky technique work just fine here? Maybe the positioning is the same but the LDC should be swapped out for a dynamic? My only dynamics are SM57s and Electro Voice RE-10s (love these things).

Anyone ever tried a ribbon mic on a bari? I have yet to buy one but this would be an excellent excuse :wink: Of course, I don't want ot buy one then have it break by the bari on the first session.

Thanks for any help

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Jay Reynolds
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Post by Jay Reynolds » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:26 am

It depends on what sound you're going for. If you're tracking something where the bari is going to be front and center (small group jazz, for instance), I'd go with the LDC off-axis. If it's going into a mix with a lot of other elements, those dynamics could be fine. If it's a complex mix and there aren't any other low frequency instruments, maybe go with the LDC.

Ribbons sound good. In fact, on the last bari session I did, I used one of ubertar's "Cereal Box" ribbons and it sounded great. The majority of the bari is in the last 1/3 of the song (as well as the alto I record through the same mic).
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2731144/Birds2.aif

Uber's working on a re-design, but if he prices the new model anywhere close to where the original was, I'd jump on it:
http://messageboard.tapeop.com/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

I'm actually going to do some more bari tracking later today (if I have time). I'm planing on using the Cereal Box, so I'll post the raw tracks. Maybe I'll put up a 57 along side. Could be an interesting shootout.
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Post by jgimbel » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:00 am

Nice track, superaction, that was a great listen.

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Post by Jay Reynolds » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:07 am

[hijack]Muchas gracias!

All the instruments are analog, including the drum machines (oberhiem dx and alesis hr16). I used minimoog, arp axxe and stylophone for the synth parts. The claps are me overdubbing myself while playing the last clap/claps back over my "mains". All the other perc (sleigh bells, zils, djembe, bell kit) were tracked live.

Mrs. superaction80 did trumpet and sleigh bells on this one. My friend Nick played concertina and stylophone.

[/hijack]
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Post by NewAndImprov » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:24 am

My Shinybox (with the Cinemag upgrade) is my go-to mic for Bari. Generally, I love that mic on horns, especially if one player is building up a sax section one line at a time. With the SB0x, stuff just blends really nicely. I've wanted to use the SM-7 on bari also, but haven't had the opportunity yet.

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Post by psinglet » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:00 pm

Sennheiser 421 + Bari sax = goodness.

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Post by losthighway » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 pm

All of the above + RE10.

I've said this before, it might just be novelty (I only get to do horns 1 in 20 sessions) but I swear getting a cool horn sound is so much easier than a great guitar tone, or an amazing snare sound.

Maybe my standards are higher for the others cause I do them all the time, but I swear you can point whatever is on a stand at a saxophone and it sounds neat.

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Post by Jay Reynolds » Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:45 pm

losthighway wrote:All of the above + RE10.

I've said this before, it might just be novelty (I only get to do horns 1 in 20 sessions) but I swear getting a cool horn sound is so much easier than a great guitar tone, or an amazing snare sound.

Maybe my standards are higher for the others cause I do them all the time, but I swear you can point whatever is on a stand at a saxophone and it sounds neat.
I'm not sure. I can point anything at my alto (Selmer Super Action 80 Series 1+Meyer 6m) and it sounds "right". The bari (old beater King Student Model+Ria metal and I don't remember the facing) is a little pickier. And my tenor (Selmer Lavoix+Otto Link 7star) was a bitch. RE20, 421, 414, KSM32, tlm103, sm757 = no dice. I did a session with a r121, but never heard the finals of that. But i finally figured out that a SM7b sound great on that horn.

So it's definitely player and horn.

To the OP-the files I got sent for the bari work were 32 bit and Logic didn't like them. I'll try to get the work done Thurs. I'll post when I'm done.
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losthighway
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Post by losthighway » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:26 pm

superaction80 wrote:
losthighway wrote:All of the above + RE10.

I've said this before, it might just be novelty (I only get to do horns 1 in 20 sessions) but I swear getting a cool horn sound is so much easier than a great guitar tone, or an amazing snare sound.

Maybe my standards are higher for the others cause I do them all the time, but I swear you can point whatever is on a stand at a saxophone and it sounds neat.
I'm not sure. I can point anything at my alto (Selmer Super Action 80 Series 1+Meyer 6m) and it sounds "right". The bari (old beater King Student Model+Ria metal and I don't remember the facing) is a little pickier. And my tenor (Selmer Lavoix+Otto Link 7star) was a bitch. RE20, 421, 414, KSM32, tlm103, sm757 = no dice. I did a session with a r121, but never heard the finals of that. But i finally figured out that a SM7b sound great on that horn.
Yeah, I suppose the last couple sax recordings I've done have been on my own Alto Yamaha 52, or a Selmer Tenor. It's been ages since I recorded Bari, I think it was an old Bundy, but I just kind of through an LDC a few feet away and mic'ed the bell with a 57 (probably all I had at the time). I wouldn't be shocked if I listened to that old recording and found it less than amazing.

I still like the technique of aiming just above the bell at the top keys. I also think struggling to make some guys Tenor sound sweet is much more fun than trying to talk someone out of using their solid state Marshall practice amp for "Heavy" rhythm guitar tracks.

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Post by Jay Reynolds » Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:33 pm

losthighway wrote:
I also think struggling to make some guys Tenor sound sweet is much more fun than trying to talk someone out of using their solid state Marshall practice amp for "Heavy" rhythm guitar tracks.
"I know that's a nice drum kit, but I'm just more comfortable using mine. You know the one, with the crap shells and the heads that I refuse to change? That's part of my magic."

Most places don't have an old King Super 20 laying around, so you are just in charge of making what's coming out of the player sound right. At that point, you're engineering, as opposed to trying to talk someone else out of making your job harder.

Sometimes the mic in the bell is good, esp. for section stuff.
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Post by Bob Weston » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:27 pm

I've had very good luck recording bari sax with an AT 4060 large diaphram tube mic. I've done a bunch of jazz records with Ken Vandermark using this mic on all his saxes. We try to keep it back a foot or two.

bob weston

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Post by snoopy23 » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:56 pm

In my jazz band we have used a Sennheiser 421 on the bari with excellent results. I put it about a foot above the bell, pointing slightly across it rather than directly into it. The sound I have been getting is full and brassy, but still has that nice "wood-y" reed sound. Good luck!
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Post by Anthony Caruso » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:54 pm

What I saw and heard of "typical" sax micing was almost always a U67 a couple feet away pointed somewhere between bell and reed. I think all you really DON'T want to do is stick a mic right in the bell, but hey, who knows...

The COOLEST sound I ever got was an SM7b, but instead of hanging out upstairs it was pointed at the front of the horn, under the bell and between the bell and the bottom curve of the horn, maybe a foot away. TONS of low end, not a lot of the buzzy part of the tone. Cool for a darker, subtler sound...
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Post by aitikin » Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:15 pm

I do a heck of a lot of sax recordings and Bari we usually put up a nice LDC, but I've been using a 441 or 421 lately. I like it about as much, maybe a little less, but that's probably because the bari player I've been working with lately is kinda a bad performer.

And I definitely have to say that it's almost all player that makes making the instrument sound good easier. I know a guitarist who, when I record him, I have to put just the slightest eq, adjust levels, and it's set.

On the other hand, there's a French Horn player I know who I have to spend hours on his sound just to make it sound fitting. Plus the aforementioned bari player. I work at a university in the recording studio so I see all ends of the spectrum there.
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Post by cgarges » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:08 pm

Bari sax actually seems easier to me than alto. I've made a lot of good-sounding recordings with a lot of different mics and I do like ribbon mics a god bit. The RCA 77DX and BK-5As have been my favorites so far, but I haven't yet tried my 4038s on bari. I've also had really good luck with my Lomo 19A13, which sounds great on pretty much all saxophones. Suprisingly, the MXL V67 (original green version) sounds really great on bari sax, even though to me it's not THAT great on other members of the saxophone family. I've also done recordings that turned out just fine using 421s and RE20s.

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