not sure where to put this but i think everyone should see

[Brian]

Where do we go from here?

Is it down to the lake I fear?

Aye aye aye aye aye, aye,
aye aye, aye aye aye, aye, aye, aye

[themagicmanmdt]

you know, guys, (just discovered this thread)...

i have to say that i agree with...mostly everyone here.

brian - your initial post, to me, really reflects what's going down on the 'economy' side of the industry.

i'm also a fan of having more people being able to reach out more with their creativity - thanks to the computer, tons more is possible - and although i absolutely LOATHE people who don't understand when they buy something that it's a vote for where it comes from, who built it, how long it will last, etc etc - that is a seperate issue than the whole notion of 'sustainable market'.


hmm, well, not to write a novel or anything...

...but the cream always rises to the top. what is the cream? (insert ginger baker here for funny interlude!)

we all vote with our money.

and, what ends up being 'charttoppers', which incidentally are records and singles that sell the most downloads/CD's/LP's these days are WHAT PEOPLE LIKE.

the problem is nothing but people's mindsets.

once upon a time, the charts were full of great music. these were the days that Dylan, Lennon and Crosby guided us into evolving headspace. lots were 'tuned in', many it didn't stick with... disco hit, and that proved that the kool aid acid test ended up being an asshole move to try to get people to 'WAKE UP'. however, some of it helped...

it's no one's fault but THEMSELVES what they do with their money, what things they like, what lifestyle they lead, what thoughts they think, etc. this can derail easily into nature vs nurture, being surrounded by a 'new atmosphere' of digital and major media networks, etc... but there's always a record store in town... if the curiosity is there, people should act on it.


rather, i feel that, zooming out, the problem with market sustainability (ie those of us who have examined ourselves and feel confident on calling ourselves 'professionals', which usually means the plunge to full time)

...is not only 1) people's own internal value system for the music they love, which can be created as masterfully or as lo-fi as possible - since any quality of music of musicianship can create something that has meaning - and a simple song from a non experienced player can strike a raw nerve and be a sensation...

but also 2) people actually being aware of what they do in their lives and what they impact with the things they do. what they buy. what is 'good enough' and what is 'part of what's available, and use what's around you creatively'. it's a fine line.



i feel both ways about the 'glut' of smothering bullshit:

1) unfortunately, people love it.

2) when these people who love it get a dose of some 'other, great art', which might be the notion (without specifics) of what we're alluding to - they don't like it. a past girlfriend's younger sister - who was a bright, smart student, but a bit 'ditsy', just loved katy perry, went through a justin bieber phase, now has a bit of a hip hop side... gave her 'pet sounds' for christmas, and couldn't relate. even some MGMT... beyond her.

3) it seems it only makes it harder for people 'on the quest' for music without these 'pop' themes to find other 'great' music - not of 'the party', simplistic takes on lollipop love (hey, but that was in the 50's, too), angsty screaming songs of people wallowing in their own issues... - since, perhaps, those of us looking for art that doesn't reflect those qualities - which have the MASS APPEAL these days - unfortunately, "they keep ringing against the walls with a hollow sound".

4) so, there's a lot of people making independent music at home because people buy the stupid, vapid music (yes, that means the world to them, but nowhere close to the heart of gold that Young searched for) - and labels don't invest or look for it much anymore - and I feel that's the first step - since record companies acquiesced to profit, instead of holding art to the higher standard of 'helping the human condition', not 'feeding everyone's neurotics'.

5) the swarmed 'mediocrity' that is now with the giant swell of at home or low budget independent recordings, to me, is nothing but a mirror if demographics that wasn't amplified before. it's a loudspeaker. and, personally, i think it's too loud - but that doesn't stop me from making music or recording. now, i've done the 'internal check and balance' process, and many others do, too... and i don't feel there's any point getting up in arms about people wanting to have recordings of themselves or the band they're doing. that would be akin to cursing digital cameras - or even the kodak brownie - saying that photographs should only be taken for those worth taking a photograph about - i think we're always worth a photograph - it'll always show us something -

6) and, in the ability for the artist without major funding, the person on 'the internal quest' no matter what his talent or songwriting ability or etc - it's the antithesis of being at the whim of the recording studios - and hence record companies funding them - to get his music recorded for him to play or sell at shows.


soooo.....

man, it comes down to us. it comes down to the mindset of where we all are. me, you, this forum, what 'recording engineers' do and have as a role or think or buy or think sounds good and feel about what art is and what we like and do with our lives.


to me, that's the reason why music is the language I speak, the reason why i abandoned a past life - to change this scenario.

music speaks across boundaries, if all someone wants to do is hear.

want the market to change? want people to stop their chinese spending? stop the flood of mackie gear and other bullshit that breaks without being able to be fixed? computers that die in 2 years?


change everyone's heads. change my head, change yours. be dynamic. the problem is beyond 'music' or an 'industry'. we're just reflecting it. it's happening across everything. everywhere, it seems.

unfortunately, we're crashing and burning. people don't realize they can't just 'occupy' and make things change. 'non participation' is NOT the answer, I don't think. it's going to take us, or anyone, on the underground, to get broadcasting, playing, recording, BEING - 'true' to this idea - 'true' to these principles - throwing away notions of genres and what we will or won't do -

the 'market' of how it's set up CAN work.... it did once.... but freedom is the freedom to both succeed and destroy yourself...

it's saddening to see what everyone is doing, what everyone is supporting...

all i can do is act and burn brightly and support what i do believe in -

...which are people, places, things that are created, built, and done with this conciousness, and that realize that it's about 'how' we're doing it all.




that ended up being a long post.

you can cross reference my words on the 'listen to other stuff' about things not quite having the soul like they used to have commonly... it's just a reflection of what's going on inside 'us'.

well, not me, though. i recycle.


(edited for clarity and an afterthought):

the beatles and radiohead - two big game changers in the case of music. oddly enough, the beatles started with fun raucous takes on american music and radiohead took off with the downer 'creep' - and once they both got the limelight, people were up there, paying attention - then they changed. got enlightened. the beatles smoked out, 'rubber soul' and thenceforth. radiohead reflected through the digital age with 'ok computer' and found the way to set their souls free and righteous, in a marley-esque way, while being 'born again' in a neon sign.

it's almost like, in order to make real change with politics, too, the same model needs to happen - someone like obama (which i really thought it WAS obama) can get elected and then morph, change, grow, show true colors, open up as an individual once eyes are on him, and make change - and BE change -

perhaps this grassroots thing isn't the way to go. perhaps the proletariat revolution of spirit and awareness won't happen before the giant powers that be who sold their souls for success and never realized any different chew us all up even more.

maybe justin bieber needs to take mushrooms and flip everybody out and end up being an amazing musical and cultural force.

where's grace slick when you need her....

/end

[Brian]

It's sad, I'm old, though I was very young when I met Grace, and not so young when I met Dylan, and Crosby, and worked for Jack Bruce on the tour that became the "Cream Reunion", soooo long ago.
I think I'll quit my bitchin when I'm recording and hearing more better stuff more regularly.

My question:

Can people return music they buy off the internet?
I haven't done it. Don't know if you can.

Being able to return music is the crucial "no vote" and "dissatisfaction" vote that is necessary to get the feel for what's crap and what's not.

I don't think it's so much that they love the swell/glut of mediocrity, I think there is now no feedback mechanism to tell providers what's crap.

It does come down to the engineers, we have to do something. I think the whole world is definitely going to crash to the ground. Then there will be some "think time", then a new system.
Hopefully it will be a sustainable model, the occupiers help the crash.
We need everything that's happening, good and bad, to happen and to get on the other side of this.

[Gregg Juke]

>>>>Where do we go from here?<<<<

++++Is it down to the lake I fear?++++

****Aye aye aye aye aye, aye,
aye aye, aye aye aye, aye, aye, aye****

"It's what I call..."

(I still have a pristine copy on vinyl. Very colorful cover, as I recall. Also, they were really great live, for what that's worth)

GJ

[fossiltooth]

My question:

Can people return music they buy off the internet?
I haven't done it. Don't know if you can.

Being able to return music is the crucial "no vote" and "dissatisfaction" vote that is necessary to get the feel for what's crap and what's not.

Nope, people can't return downloaded music. But they can't return opened CDs, DVDs, Blu-Rays or LPs either, so it might not be a major point of distinction. I wouldn't sweat it too much. On the up side, we have a greater ability than ever before to "try before we buy". So that's kind of neat.

Of course, sometimes we still make purchasing decisions that don't quite work out. For instance: Matrix 2 was probably one of the most gigantic pieces of garbage I've seen in a theater in my entire life. I may never get my $10 back - But I will have the ability make fun of it at length for the rest of my life. So it all kind of evens out.

[Brian]

I'm thinking of a tool for the marketing people to report a hard stat back to the distributor and in turn back to the labels that product "S" (for shit) sux and people are returning them. That's a part of the equation people who calculate the money in another man's wallet don't take into account when hey talk about the evil labels, the returns.

[Gregg Juke]

>>>>But they can't return opened CDs, DVDs, Blu-Rays or LPs either...<<<

Well, depending on the retailer or vendor, but yeah, you could. That is where "return clauses" in recording contracts came from-- people returning records, and retailers returning (lots) of records to distributors if they didn't sell.

I wonder how that's handled nowadays, in terms of major label contracts.
Returns and breakage deductions were always a pretty big scam on the label's part, because the percentage was so low and the whole scenario so unlikely. But you definitely can't "return" something to iTunes, so I wonder how a modern 360 contract handles that sort of thing?

GJ

[themagicmanmdt]

but aren't the 'best' records the ones you hardly ever find 'used' at your local record store?

[Brian]

There has to be a way for people to return stuff they hate. Get a gift CD, it sux, return it.
WHY?
Because, how will artists and labels ever "get it" if they think every damn thing they put out is actually acceptable more than bin-able, even when most of it is tossed if they have NO MECHANISM for finding that out?
Seems to me communication is a two way street. If you only make it a one way street, like politicians fucking cheats do, well, then, in my opinion, you're even worse than them, worse than shit, worse than anything, just ramming it home on everyone. Where's the quality in that?
Where's the concern for the listeners? Where's the ethics and the integrity and intent?
Especially where is the intent and what is the intent when no one can tell you what a louse you are for making shit music no matter how cheap it is or bundled with a sweater or whatever.

Man, did I go off the rail on that one or what?
But really, if you do think about it, if you have or give no way for someone to return things especially considering most people will not tell you that you suck even if you really really do, what the is the true intent?
Is it to massage the ego without recourse for the victim,
steal money from the unsuspecting in a buyer beware fashion,
to take advantage of the trusting,
to exploit the flaws in the market reporting system and profit the whole time,
to just make money, money, money, money, money, money, money, even if you're barely making any??

Just seems so phony.

[cgarges]

I'm not a marketing or record company exec, but I would guess that it's got something to do with the onslaught of people being able to make an exact digital copy of the product before returning it. I'm not saying it's right at all, I"m just saying that may be a reason. Speaking of ethics...

But it IS totally cool now that we can basically check out any new music before we buy it or bust open the shrink wrap or whatever. That's something that hasn't always existed with this type of ease.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Brian]

Good points, all good points.

here's an ethical dilemma:

What about the guy who does make a digital copy, and throws both in the trash?

[fossiltooth]

Gregg, I'm pretty certain that over the past 15 years or so almost all retailers and labels switched to a policy where only defective merchandise could be returned by consumers, due to the ease of copying. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the "return clause" in artist contracts refers mostly to the handling of unsold merchandise.

What about the guy who does make a digital copy, and throws both in the trash?

Buyer beware I guess?

Sometimes I order a sandwich and it kinda sucks. Generally, I'd eat some of it anyway and remember not to order at that place again. I'd probably only return it if it was actually defective - Like if it had cigarette butts or broken glass in it, or if it was not actually a sandwich, but a wad of crumpled napkins painted up to look like a sandwich.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I think the idea that we should avoid eating because some sandwiches might suck is pretty silly. For me, it's the same way with music.

[Gregg Juke]

>>>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the "return clause" in artist contracts refers mostly to the handling of unsold merchandise.<<<<

Right; understood (and I thought pointed out in my post). But the number of returns a retailer has for a distributor is (or was, at any rate) based on two factors: a) records never sold, and b) records returned to the store, and not re-sold. So consumer returns impact total number of retailer returns.

As to policies of the last 15 years, you are probably right; physical product that I buy in-store usually comes from used record shops that can still order new product, or from Record Theater, which still takes returns, or from mail-order/on-line vendors. But, I still think there are probably other retailers that at least allow store credit exchanges for returned product-- am I wrong? Doesn't Barnes & Noble? I used to shop quite a bit at Media Play (but they're gone). Also shopped a lot at Borders (but they're going)...

My guy at the Record Baron takes returns, and "eats" them, as he says, because he can't sell them as new. I have heard of other (who shall remain nameless) retailers that take returns, because they have no qualms about re-shrink wrapping product and putting it right back on the shelf...

GJ

[Brian]

What about the guy who does make a digital copy, and throws both in the trash?

Buyer beware I guess?

Sometimes I order a sandwich and it kinda sucks. Generally, I'd eat some of it anyway and remember not to order at that place again. I'd probably only return it if it was actually defective - Like if it had cigarette butts or broken glass in it, or if it was not actually a sandwich, but a wad of crumpled napkins painted up to look like a sandwich.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I think the idea that we should avoid eating because some sandwiches might suck is pretty silly. For me, it's the same way with music.

Well, what if the sandwich is made out of shit? Do you return THAT sandwich?
What if it's made out of rotting stuff like rotting lettuce and meat? Stuff that's gone off? What about unripe bananas or avocados?

I guess that would be an analogy for a burnouts music or someone who clearly doesn't know what they are doing yet.

[fossiltooth]

What about the guy who does make a digital copy, and throws both in the trash?

Buyer beware I guess?

Sometimes I order a sandwich and it kinda sucks. Generally, I'd eat some of it anyway and remember not to order at that place again. I'd probably only return it if it was actually defective - Like if it had cigarette butts or broken glass in it, or if it was not actually a sandwich, but a wad of crumpled napkins painted up to look like a sandwich.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I think the idea that we should avoid eating because some sandwiches might suck is pretty silly. For me, it's the same way with music.

Well, what if the sandwich is made out of shit? Do you return THAT sandwich?
What if it's made out of rotting stuff like rotting lettuce and meat? Stuff that's gone off? What about unripe bananas or avocados?

I guess that would be an analogy for a burnouts music or someone who clearly doesn't know what they are doing yet.

Brian, I'm sorry to call you out on this, but based on your reply, I'm going to have to imagine that you didn't actually read the post you just quoted.

Sorry if I'm being a jerk about this, but in context, I really don't understand your reply.