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thegeek
takin' a dinner break
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 153
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 Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: MOTU Converters |
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I'm using a MOTU 2408mk3 with good results. I do most of my mixing and work out of the box into Reaper.
I've been reading that converters are a good upgrade for overall sounds quality - but how well do the MOTU Converters fair against other "higher end ones". Are they worth upgrading?
And if I do - how in the world do I put that into my current system?
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theGeek
Springload - Juice Rock
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Snarl 12/8
moves faders with mind
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
Posts: 2737
Location: Portland
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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There's always BLA which wouldn't require any change whatsoever in your workflow. They modify Motus to make them more "hi-fi." I'm not positive, but I don't think they touch the actual converters though, just all the analog circuitry going in and out of them, which apparently makes a big difference. You can also get a respectable clock from them, which people swear makes a big difference too.
http://lmgtfy.com
Also, search the hell out of this board if you're at all interested, BLA gets lots of love and discussion on here, although none recently that I've noticed.
Disclaimer: I don't work for BLA and I've never even tried any of their products. People rave about their customer service, but I actually didn't get much love when I made inquiries in the past.
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thegeek
takin' a dinner break
Joined: 18 Nov 2009
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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| Snarl 12/8 wrote: | There's always BLA which wouldn't require any change whatsoever in your workflow. They modify Motus to make them more "hi-fi." I'm not positive, but I don't think they touch the actual converters though, just all the analog circuitry going in and out of them, which apparently makes a big difference. You can also get a respectable clock from them, which people swear makes a big difference too.
http://lmgtfy.com
Also, search the hell out of this board if you're at all interested, BLA gets lots of love and discussion on here, although none recently that I've noticed.
Disclaimer: I don't work for BLA and I've never even tried any of their products. People rave about their customer service, but I actually didn't get much love when I made inquiries in the past. |
I've looked into them - gave them a call and we'll see about that. Their mod is rather inexpensve.
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theGeek
Springload - Juice Rock
Tremor Christ - Pearl Jam Tribute
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RodC
dead but not forgotten
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 2036
Location: Right outside the door
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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Been looking at the MOTU stuff myself, most interesting threads I have seen so far:
This one is related to the BLA mods
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/564195-how-bad-motu-828-mkii-audio-conversion-lets-find-out-2.html
One post I found interesting -
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i don't mean to open a can of worms, just posting my findings.
i ran the "Mill Valley Waltz" test through my BLA-modded 828mkII five times to compare it to the stock 828mkII (prontold, if this is not cool, let me know and i'll remove the files).
sadly, i cannot hear a difference, and the two files almost completely null. perhaps this a flawed testing technique, i don't know...but i was expecting to hear a difference because i thought the BLA mod improved the sound of my 828mkII.
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I'm sure the mods changed things, but is it worth the money? Most ppl could stand more room treatment or some better cables and notice much more of an improvement in their setup. IMO
And this one -
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-end-theory/564195-how-bad-motu-828-mkii-audio-conversion-lets-find-out.html[/quote]
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farview
tinnitus
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 1173
Location: St. Charles (chicago) IL
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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I have one modded motu unit and one stock one. Even though I do hear a difference, the stock converters are not going to hold you back in an effort to create a great sounding recording.
Yes, high end converters do sound better, but we are talking fine details, not gigantic night and day things.
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Jay Walsh
Farview Recording and Farview Audio |
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Nick Sevilla
cryogenically thawing
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 3670
Location: Los Angeles California USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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| thegeek wrote: | I'm using a MOTU 2408mk3 with good results. I do most of my mixing and work out of the box into Reaper.
I've been reading that converters are a good upgrade for overall sounds quality - but how well do the MOTU Converters fair against other "higher end ones". Are they worth upgrading?
And if I do - how in the world do I put that into my current system? |
Hi,
This kind of discussion happens so much, that I just have to ask:
Are you UNHAPPY with your current converters?
Do they make your sounds "sound bad"?
Is there technical reasons why you would need a better converter?
Have you tested your D.A.W. (Reaper) to listen if it is the culprit?
I tested Reaper once with my Motu 828 mkiii, which is the same hardware as the 2408 mkiii, except for the interfacing to the computer.
It did exactly the same thing as Logic Pro 9 :
When you record a test audio source 5 different times to 5 different tracks, using the same inputs, or different physical inputs, or any other combination you can
think of, the recordings ALL are placed in a different place in the timeline. ALL of them, EVERY TIME.
In my case, this test was a click played back from the DAW itself, and re-recorded straight back in.
That is the reason I do not use Reaper, nor Logic Pro. They are both unpredictable in their results.
Most people would be ok with this, but in my experience, this can and will eventually bite me in the butt.
"Comb filtering issues" anyone?
In short, try to test your Motu 2408mkiii with another DAW before thinking it may be the one giving you trouble.
Cheers
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KoffeeKommando
gettin' sounds
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 108
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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http://recording.org/daw-pro-audio/32051-dual-motu-24io-system-not-sample.html
http://stretta.blogspot.com/2007/07/daw-midi-timing-redux_25.html
http://editthis.info/sonar/Sonar_Workflow_-_Multisesson_Tracking_Loopback_Latency
"This is an issue that can happen with any DAW software. This is because it is generally caused by the drivers for the sound interface (soundcard) not reporting the true loop-back latency so the DAW software can compensate properly. There a number of reasons that this happens that we won't worry about here. The point is that you need to measure your DAW's actual compensated loop-back latency and correct for it if needed."
m-Audio Delta WDM Driver Problems Discussion - http://bit.ly/t2u68g
"Conclusions
First I'll conclude that I'm a retard for spending almost two hours putting this thing together!
Second, it certainly looks to me like this is a problem with either m-Audio's Delta WDM driver, WDM itself, or n-Track's WDM support. Obviously the amount of track offset using WDM is directly related to the number of samples selected in the Delta Control Panel DMA Buffer Settings box. This problem does not occur when using Delta ASIO drivers."
I'd like to find more precise info about this. Seems like a question for the DAW Bench forum. |
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Nick Sevilla
cryogenically thawing
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 3670
Location: Los Angeles California USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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| KoffeeKommando wrote: | This is an issue that can happen with any DAW software
I'd like to find more precise info about this. Seems like a question for the DAW Bench forum. |
There is one DAW which I have found does not do this.
Pro Tools HD. Not the LE though, this one has done it, although it is a little more consistent than the other daws and hardware out there.
Sorry for you ProTools haters...
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KoffeeKommando
gettin' sounds
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 108
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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And that's with their hardware and matched drivers right?
That would make sense.
Now, you could get the same performance with "any" DAW if the DAW, driver and audio interface talk to each other correctly. This requirement knocks quite a few manufacturers out of the box.
Dirty secrets of the computer recording industry!
I'm going to go to the DAW Bench forum and get some clarity. I'm sure a short list can be drawn up from 2011 hardware/software.
Last edited by KoffeeKommando on Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nick Sevilla
cryogenically thawing
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
Posts: 3670
Location: Los Angeles California USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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| KoffeeKommando wrote: | And that's with their hardware and matched drivers right?
That would make sense. |
Yes. I for one am glad they do this, it keeps me focussed on working, and not on figuring out what is wrong half the time...
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KoffeeKommando
gettin' sounds
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 108
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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| Nick Sevilla wrote: |
Yes. I for one am glad they do this, it keeps me focussed on working, and not on figuring out what is wrong half the time... |
It should be spelled out in their "marketing" lit. I mean, that "feature" makes the price of the hardware "worth it".
Maybe they take it for granted?
I mean, this stuff affects all of us in this day and age now that analog is out of reach for most. |
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Snarl 12/8
moves faders with mind
Joined: 20 Dec 2008
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Location: Portland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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| KoffeeKommando wrote: | | now that analog is out of reach for most. |
So is ProTools HD.
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Carl Keil |
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Nick Sevilla
cryogenically thawing
Joined: 03 Mar 2008
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Location: Los Angeles California USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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| KoffeeKommando wrote: | | Nick Sevilla wrote: |
Yes. I for one am glad they do this, it keeps me focussed on working, and not on figuring out what is wrong half the time... |
It should be spelled out in their "marketing" lit. I mean, that "feature" makes the price of the hardware "worth it".
Maybe they take it for granted?
I mean, this stuff affects all of us in this day and age now that analog is out of reach for most. |
I agree. Although they'll keep marketing however they want.
I bought an MCI JH-24 2" 24 track machine for under 4K. This would be less than half for a new-ish PT HD with only 8 analog ins and outs.
The only issue I would have with using this, is that you would have to make sure the musicians are playing they way they mean to play, and not think you'll edit anything.
Next year I am considering using this as part of my services, as far as transfers from 2" analogue, and also using the tape machine to print digital tracks and then back to digital. Some people think this might help the quality of their sound.
But, I am on the fence on this. I'd rather just mix records 99% of the time.
Cheers
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KoffeeKommando
gettin' sounds
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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Now to tie this back in to the OP....
I bet there are combinations of cheaper DAW and interface that "lock together".
Most probably something ASIO as the link above showed way back in 2000.
I'm betting it's going to be something by RME, Lynx with Cubase.
SSL also has a unit in that price range. But you need to make sure their implementation is good. How long have they been at PC/Mac drivers?
On the cheap end the M-Audio Firewire stuff with ASIO seems tight. DAW Bench said they came very close to the (latency) performance of the big boys.
Now to ask them about the *accuracy* part.
There is no reason for interfaces to *not* work properly.
Just comes down to the quality of the programmers.
M-Audio, Lynx, RME are all in house hardware solutions. And there you have it.
A search for "DAW accuracy" turned up this joke thread at GS. OP asks a good question...bad results. Talking while saying nothing.
http://bit.ly/uFaSl0 |
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KoffeeKommando
gettin' sounds
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 108
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: MOTU Converters |
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Found out some more on this "topic"
"This is referring to converters themselves, not plugins or ASIO - PT9 can read Avid hardware's ADDA delays, where that has to be done by setting up roundtrip pings with 3rd party hardware/external gear.
"Pro Tools HD accounts for converter delays when using Automatic Delay Compensation. However, when using non-HD hardware, System Delay only displays internal delay and does not take into account any latency incurred by the analog-to-digital (ADC) or digital-to-analog (DAC) converters in your audio interface." (PT9 new features list)
This means routing out to an external reverb won't be sample accurate, but you can manually account for it (I think within the system delay setup, not with track-by-track manual delay). "
http://www.cubendo.com/showthread.php?2467-Protools-9-ASIO-CoreAudio-ADC/page3
"Its pretty much confirmed that PT9 does not compensate for non AVID AD/DA , the points raised in this thread is that neither do any of the other DAW hosts when using for example external AD/DA's . Thats the point that seems to be getting bypassed by all of the hysteria.
Modern AD/DA's from RME/Lynx for example have under 30 samples round trip , and most end users in Cubendo never offset or are even none the wiser."
So, Pro Tools interfaces "lock up" perfect with Pro Tools HD.
Lynx Aurora HD or any Lynx with the LT-HD card installed mimic this when used with Pro Tools. They spell this out.
No other DAW "locks up" the AD/DA automatically with the interface I guess.
But then this poster said:
"I've done this test before with my (old) Motu interface in Nuendo (it seemed to report latencies correctly through ASIO to Cubendo), and things lined up.
But that test I did was several years ago. I would have to do it again with current interfaces (and drivers). "
With a quality interface/ASIO driver used under Cubase, you might just get lucky. I do believe there is a "system delay" setting in Cubase somewhere (not track delay). If not using a good interface/driver, you would have to manually muck with this all the time. All other DAW software is ??? in regards to this.
What a crappy situation. |
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