Arranging the band on stage...

[Wilson]

Hello gang I need some help...

I am an experienced sound man, but occasionally I run into unfamiliar territory, hence this plea for help.

There is a new band in my church with serious organizational issues, to the point where the band leader often looks at me for direction. Question: [b]How do I efficiently arrange 13 musicians into four stage monitors?[/b] Band makeup is:

Portable Piano
Electronic drums
Flute
Accordion
Electric bass
3 guitars (1 electric, 2 acoustic)
5 Vocals (3 female, 2 male; one femme vox also plays aforementioned acoustic guitar)

They actually are quite good when they're not disagreeing among themselves. Their only consensus is my awesome sound and how much smoother things go when I'm there. Thank you all for your help.

[Gregg Juke]

Well, there are several possible answers... Depending on a number of variables, probably the most important of which are-- 1) Are they experienced pro/semi-pro (secular) musicians? 2) are they relatively inexperienced church-only musicians? It sounds like you're describing churchies, but I could be wrong. These are generally a very different breed from experienced live stage performers or studio pros.

Not trying to divide along any denigrating lines, it's just that there really is a difference (one of the many things I've been involved in has been church worship ministry). Pros that come in to play in church will want the same basic things that musicians on any stage will want-- decent sound, the ability to hear what they need from the rest of the band and vocalists, and a healthy dose of themselves in the monitor mix (so they can accurately hear their own voice or make instrumental adjustments, etc.). hearing the rhythm section (drums and bass specifically) will be of paramount importance to vocalists and lead instrumentalists alike.

"Church-only" musicians and singers, on the other hand ("by-and-large, I have found;" YMMV) will have a very different set of expectations, if they have any at all. Worship team/back-up vocalists will want to hear a lot of themselves, and maybe the worship leader, but "No drums! They're WAY TOO LOUD already!" Drummers and bassists will tend to overplay (both in regards to volume and business), and the rest of the instrumetalists will try to fill in every nook and cranny and will have no concept of "space." (13? God Bless you!)...

Your job is cut-out for you. Try to give them what they want, avoid anything that would cause or increase chances of feedback, and if they are looking to you to set the stage up and the monitor mixes, do what you want and see how it works. Now's your chance to try some things. If they are experienced, or they are quick learners, one thing will become apparent-- sight lines, as well as monitoring, will be very impotant between worship leader and drummer, and worship leader and singers, so try to use your platform area with those considerations in mind.

GJ

[CedarSound]

I'm no expert, but as someone who has run sound a handful of times and played on stage hundreds of times, I can say that the vocals are probably the most important thing when it comes to stage monitors. If the band can balance themselves on stage.. (do they have amplification or is it mostly direct?), then usually a well balanced monitor mix of vocals, along with a little bass in the drummers monitor (if there is one) can get most bands through a gig.. Depending on their professionalism and experience, of course..

As far as the acoustics are concerned, I would probably try to put a little in the monitor closest to the player..

[Gregg Juke]

Ok, a little more time to respond... What Cedar said. Also, despite pleas to turn them down to non-existent levels, make sure that the vocalists can hear the drums and the worship leader/lead singer, the drummer can hear the bassist and vice versa, and the drummer has a good vocal mix. Many people will say, of a non-singing drummer, "Why does the drummer need a vocal mix?" One thing that has proven true again and again and again, make sure that the drummer can at least hear the lead singer.

Also, if the pastors or others are prone to inter-mingle with the band during worship (i.e., if worship starts and stops with interjections from the pastor or others), make sure that the band gets a touch of that mike in their monitor or headphones, so they can be a part of the experience and respond accordingly.

If headphones are involved (or even large wedges), make sure that people understand that they can't randomly plug-in and un-plug cables and various gear, as this can lead to serious hearing damage for those exposed. Also, be very careful regarding not letting anybody get a big feedback spike...

I know many people won't agree with me, but I would strongly suggest that you do not put any effects such as reverb, delay, or chorus, into the monitor mix; certainly not for the drummer or the vocalists. Confidence-verb schmomfidence-schmerb-- it will almost always cause timing and/or pitch problems. (IMHO and EXP.) Also, try to make sure that singers get a good handle on proper microphone technique (not singing across the mike, holding it 30 feet away, or covering it and eating it like a rapper); make sure they have an understanding of proximity effect.

As far as stage set-up, it depends on sight-lines, who is comfortable sharing what mix with whom, etc., etc., and how much room you actually have. Also, how many mikes/inputs you've got to work with. Also your room and your platform, and where you set-up the drums to mitigate various unwanted reflections and echoes and to minimize whatever feedback issues you may have to deal with due to "the volume wars." Since I went back and can see that you're dealing with electronic drums rather than acoustic, you've got a lot of that licked already. Hopefully guitarists and bassist can keep amp volumes under control. Acoustic guitars-- can they go direct (electro-acoustic?)? (Crappy sound, but a lot easier than miking in such a crowded situation)...

If singers are having trouble keeping pitch, slowly ease-up the lead vox and their own vox, and/or the harmonic instrumental portion of the mix (piano and acoustic) until things straighten-out.

If I think of more, I'll be back...

GJ

[vxboogie]

Question: How do I efficiently arrange 13 musicians into four stage monitors?

They actually are quite good when they're not disagreeing among themselves. Their only consensus is my awesome sound and how much smoother things go when I'm there. Thank you all for your help.

+ 1 on Greggs comments.

The first thing I'd do is have a sit down discussion with the worship leader and try to talk through the arrangement(musical) and positioning(physical) issues first. With that many pieces, if they aren't "self arranging" to some extent, it will end up as mud, IMHO. Then, I would I would start to tackle the monitor issue by spending some time on stage at practice and hearing what they are hearing with minimal monitors. Also, explaining(or letting the WL explain) what and why you are doing this and the end result that you are trying to accomplish, might help.

That said, it is a daunting task and one that I have only been able to tackle over time and by earning their confidence.

[Gentleman Jim]

It's a coincidence that this question should be asked, as I've been filling in for a friend who mixes three church services every weekend. While I've mixed gospel/worship in a larger setting before, the experience of working on their home turf is a little different.

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said so far. One thing that I've found to be helpful when working with worship music is to be sure to include the worship leader in as much of the conversation as possible - sometimes to a point of deference that would seem silly at a secular or rock gig. They're more than just bandleaders, they're often times the only person with any say about arrangements, song choice, or instrumentation. They're typically underpaid, overworked, and doing this because it's something they feel very passionately about.

As far as this new 13 piece band in concerned, I have some questions:
-What size space are they playing in?
-Is there any money around for things like a small powered speaker for the piano, and a small mixer and headphones for the drummer?
-How many monitor mixes are available? What's the sound board?

And I have some very basic, rule of thumb advice:
-place the flute all the way out on either side, as far away from any amplifiers as possible. Maybe do the same with the accordion if necessary.
-don't be afraid to tell the electric guitarist and the bassist that their amps are too loud if they are. perhaps they need to tilt/elevate their amps or stand right next to them to get the desired SPL, but better that than you making everything else louder to compensate.
-put as little in the monitors as possible. If you can get away with vocals only in the singers' mixes, then do that. The fewer channels sent to each mix, the more clear the mixes will be.
-have them do a couple of songs with no monitors or mains at all. Then have them do a couple of songs with the mains on, but still no monitors. This will show them what they actually need to hear more of, rather than what they think they need to have in the monitors.

[cdixon6]

I worked a gig once where the stage was set up differently. I don't know the true intent or how they decided to setup the stage but the drums were stage right facing center. I swear it was because the drummer had the worst musician face while he was playing. I was working front-of-house but I dropped backstage to catch a glance because all of my coworkers were just dying from laughter after seeing him. I've never seen a more ridiculous face ever since.